Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Statement on Google’s conduct by founder of CelebrityNetWorth.com (2019) [pdf]

docs.house.gov

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 271 posts

Re: Statement on Google’s conduct by founder of CelebrityNetWorth.com (2019) [pdf]

#81

Post by mfer »

teddyh wrote: post #41

The primary case here made against Google might be questionable behavior from Google, but might not be illegal, since simple numbers like a dollar amount can’t be copyrighted, and AFAIK there is no other legal impediment to Google doing what they did (IANAL). What looks far more inculpatory to me is this, on the last page: […] Because it controls essentially the entire internet, Google has endless levers at its dispo…

Taking someone else's copy written content and presenting it as your own can be seen as content theft. Imagine if a book author did that to a chapter of a book.

When the one doing it can essential present the case that they should be allowed to do it or they will destroy your business then it's an abuse of power. When they are in a position to actually do it because they have so much of the power in the space it can be argued to be a monopoly and abuse of monopoly power.

Google isn't just copying a number. They are copying text from other sites to present.

Re: Statement on Google’s conduct by founder of CelebrityNetWorth.com (2019) [pdf]

#82

Post by mrtksn »

dimsumsumdim wrote: post #79
manish_gill wrote: post #48

I have Zero respect for the Google engineers and PMs who worked on this project, scraping content without attributing to the original source, and subsequent change in the search ranking of the original source. A very bad taste in the mouth indeed.

I am not trying to defend Google or its practices. But how is the activity of CNW researchers different from what is Google doing? Unless the author elaborates on their method, "Educated guess" sounds like scrapping content without sourcing the author in the first place.

AFAIK there's no other database that they scrapped from. Reading sources like news articles, documents etc. is very different from copying the database that someone else created.

It's like the difference of tapping Yelp's API and create a competing service and looking at Yelp, Google, Squirespace etc. to create a restorant recommendations website.

Re: Statement on Google’s conduct by founder of CelebrityNetWorth.com (2019) [pdf]

#83

Post by Phaedor »

markalexander wrote: post #74
Phaedor wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone have pretty much unlimited access in practice so I dont see that the press have any special advantage. The press have guidelines that they should only publish the tax of public figures and I have not seen them abuse this so far. We are a country with a high degree of social trust, and that is what I believe makes our country great. I realize that our system is not for everyone and that is fair.

Sure, I've spent some time in Norway, I get it. It's definitely very different to societies like the UK or US. I'm not fundamentally against open tax records like this, but even in Norway there are bad actors and if we are going to play a game of 'how can this be exploited', I think it's definitely possible to do so. I can't really agree that a 500 limit with notification is 'in practice' the same as no limit with no…

Sure, almost any system can be exploited so at some point we just have to compare the advantages with the disadvantages. I am not aware of any abuse of this system. Everyone knows that their tax and income is pretty much public knowledge so they will live their life by that assumption.

Re: Statement on Google’s conduct by founder of CelebrityNetWorth.com (2019) [pdf]

#85

Post by teddyh »

mfer wrote: post #81
teddyh wrote: post #41

The primary case here made against Google might be questionable behavior from Google, but might not be illegal, since simple numbers like a dollar amount can’t be copyrighted, and AFAIK there is no other legal impediment to Google doing what they did (IANAL). What looks far more inculpatory to me is this, on the last page: […] Because it controls essentially the entire internet, Google has endless levers at its dispo…

Taking someone else's copy written content and presenting it as your own can be seen as content theft. Imagine if a book author did that to a chapter of a book. When the one doing it can essential present the case that they should be allowed to do it or they will destroy your business then it's an abuse of power. When they are in a position to actually do it because they have so much of the power in the space it can…

> Taking someone else's copy written content […]

(You should read up a bit on this; it’s obvious you have not since you call it “copy written” when the term is “copyright” and a work can therefore be “copyrighted”. The term is about who has the right to copy a given work, and has nothing to do with “writing”.)

Copying text someone else has written is indeed copyright infringement (commonly, but technically inaccurately, called “theft”). Except for the narrowly defined classes of copying called “fair use”, Google would indeed be breaking the law if they did that, but:

> Google isn't just copying a number. They are copying text from other sites to present.

That’s not what the topic was about, and therefore not what my comment was about. My comment concerned the specific case made by the PDF document, which was about Google copying individual dollar amounts, not text.

Re: Statement on Google’s conduct by founder of CelebrityNetWorth.com (2019) [pdf]

#86

Post by teddyh »

onetimemanytime wrote: post #71
teddyh wrote: post #41

The primary case here made against Google might be questionable behavior from Google, but might not be illegal, since simple numbers like a dollar amount can’t be copyrighted, and AFAIK there is no other legal impediment to Google doing what they did (IANAL). What looks far more inculpatory to me is this, on the last page: […] Because it controls essentially the entire internet, Google has endless levers at its dispo…

>> but might not be illegal, since simple numbers like a dollar amount can’t be copyrighted, and AFAIK there is no other legal impediment to Google doing what they did (IANAL). Forbes for one spends a LOT of money hiring people to try to estimate the net-worth. So it is a number--but one that someone paid a lot of money to get it. Illegal? Maybe. Not-ethical? Very much so IMO

Well, yes; I did say it was questionable.

Re: Statement on Google’s conduct by founder of CelebrityNetWorth.com (2019) [pdf]

#87

Post by teddyh »

PedroBatista wrote: post #77
teddyh wrote: post #41

The primary case here made against Google might be questionable behavior from Google, but might not be illegal, since simple numbers like a dollar amount can’t be copyrighted, and AFAIK there is no other legal impediment to Google doing what they did (IANAL). What looks far more inculpatory to me is this, on the last page: […] Because it controls essentially the entire internet, Google has endless levers at its dispo…

The "it's not illegal" game is what every dominant company or powerful mobster wants you to play. Because it's their game and they spend a great deal of money to ensure they always win.

Yes. Therefore, if we want to win, we should not play that game. Which is why I pointed to something else in the document which much more strongly implicated wrongdoing by Google.

Re: Statement on Google’s conduct by founder of CelebrityNetWorth.com (2019) [pdf]

#88

Post by chordalkeyboard »

lalaland1125 wrote: post #6

I think Google is in the right here. Facts are not protected by copyright and they shouldn't be. Imagine being able to copyright the density of steel or the list of historical US presidents. It would be a disaster.

try looking up the material properties of some commonly used alloys and see how much is:

1) available but unreliable

2) on a materials data sheet that must be purchased

Re: Statement on Google’s conduct by founder of CelebrityNetWorth.com (2019) [pdf]

#89

Post by jarym »

I only see one solution: Make Google split the search business out so that it only provides search and nothing else. That was Google's stated 'point' of their own site and they should be held to it.

They are like a bad rash, just ripping off from businesses of all sizes and relying on their dominance in search and financial muscle to get away with it.

Siphoning off search into its own unit would defang Google's ability to use their search engine dominance to upend others business models and would also reduce the incentives to do such shady things as well.

Re: Statement on Google’s conduct by founder of CelebrityNetWorth.com (2019) [pdf]

#90

Post by thedevilslawyer »

philprx wrote: post #52
teddyh wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep calling it “theft”. It is obviously not literally theft, since no physical object has been taken. The only thing you could possibly mean is “copyright infringement” (which is commonly called theft in imprecise and inflammatory language), but copyright does not apply to a simple fact like a dollar amount, no matter how much research lies behind it. You might be of the opinion that it should , but that is a di…

Ok, sorry sir ;-) Copyright infringement. What's the difference really here? IANAL means this precisely (and on a side note, I'm here for open exchange and debate, not for claiming to be right ;-) Interestingly, depending on jurisdictions, there are places on the globe (EU, FR) where I think the terminology is theft not copyright infringement ("theft of database"), even if it does not apply to this US National disput…

There is a significant difference, and an entire activism movement in ensuring this is recognized. Thanks for calling out (and I hope realizing) the difference.
Post reply on HN