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Fed announces details of new interbank service to support instant payments

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Re: Fed announces details of new interbank service to support instant payments

#301

Post by kevincox »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #269
harikb wrote: post #130

One thing I don't see mention regarding the existing US ACH (or whatever interbank) system is that there is absolutely no verification or security in this system. Just like verification of paper check signature and a whole lot of other financial items - most banks allow anything until questioned. The easiest and cost effective way is to let it happen and reimburse for failures. 1. I have linked a non-joint account in…

Regarding #3: In general - from my time working at a phone company call center some years back - it is a much better indicator of security to ask folks to verify some account information than to try to say someone is doing something fraudulent by judging whether or not the sound of their voice matches what I think it should sound like based on their name. Verifying information tends to mean that the person has permis…

I was just talking to my transgender friend and she much more frequently gets questioned after she changed her name which is a bit frustrating for her.

I'm not saying that it can be used as a tip-off for extra verification but the real solution is to use a strong authenticator in the first place and not worry about these "softer" details.

Re: Fed announces details of new interbank service to support instant payments

#302

Post by RivieraKid »

fesja wrote: post #294

In 2024, USA will reach the current present in Europe ;) Since 2017, the SEPA Instant Credit Transfer protocol is enabled in Europe. Which is basically what FedNow will be. Multiple apps and banks have built on top of it solutions for consumers and businesses. I interviewed Bizum, the success story of Spain related to instant payments. Here, "bizum" is a verb. 100% of banks supoort it. Everyone, kids and adults, use…

In the Czech Republic all major banks support instant transfers AFAIK, but not sure what's the situation for EU transfers, when I send money to Degiro (stock broker) it's not instant.

Also, I almost stopped using cash and just use my phone everywhere.

Re: Fed announces details of new interbank service to support instant payments

#303

Post by throwanem »

cowsandmilk wrote: post #282
djsumdog wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first job out of university was working for a debt collection firm that made its own ACH engine in Perl. I remember all the 99999s and headers and stuff. I didn't work very much on the engine though (thankfully). I was pretty shocked at just how far behind the American banking system was when I lived overseas for a bit. I wrote about it here: https://battlepenguin.com/tech/the-american-banking-system-i...

Your blog article is startlingly incorrect pretty early on. Individuals can and do use ACH between each other all the time. It is literally how paper checks work in the US. And I’ve been able to use a routing number and account number to send money to someone else online via ACH for decades...

I think the distinction being made there is that, while individuals can request that banks or businesses perform an ACH on our behalf, as in your funds transfer example or to pay a bill without incurring payment card fee overhead, we can't generate and submit our own batches directly to any clearinghouse.

Which is just as well! In that circumstance, there would be nothing structurally to stop anyone who knows your routing and account number from performing ACH debits against your account. That's actually an already extant attack vector - and the reason why I never pay bills via ACH; I don't trust most payment processors to be very secure and fraudulent payment card transactions are easier to claw back - but without the barrier to entry inherent in the attacker having to subvert or convince some third party to act on their behalf, I think it'd be a much more common occurrence.

Re: Fed announces details of new interbank service to support instant payments

#304

Post by dataflow »

throwanem wrote: post #303
cowsandmilk wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your blog article is startlingly incorrect pretty early on. Individuals can and do use ACH between each other all the time. It is literally how paper checks work in the US. And I’ve been able to use a routing number and account number to send money to someone else online via ACH for decades...

I think the distinction being made there is that, while individuals can request that banks or businesses perform an ACH on our behalf, as in your funds transfer example or to pay a bill without incurring payment card fee overhead, we can't generate and submit our own batches directly to any clearinghouse. Which is just as well! In that circumstance, there would be nothing structurally to stop anyone who knows your ro…

> I think the distinction being made there is that, while individuals can request that banks or businesses perform an ACH on our behalf, as in your funds transfer example or to pay a bill without incurring payment card fee overhead, we can't generate and submit our own batches directly to any clearinghouse.

Is that possible in any country? I've never heard of a banking system where ordinary people directly submit a transaction to the national clearing house. They always tell their bank to send their funds, right?

Re: Fed announces details of new interbank service to support instant payments

#305

Post by throwanem »

dataflow wrote: post #304
throwanem wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the distinction being made there is that, while individuals can request that banks or businesses perform an ACH on our behalf, as in your funds transfer example or to pay a bill without incurring payment card fee overhead, we can't generate and submit our own batches directly to any clearinghouse. Which is just as well! In that circumstance, there would be nothing structurally to stop anyone who knows your ro…

> I think the distinction being made there is that, while individuals can request that banks or businesses perform an ACH on our behalf, as in your funds transfer example or to pay a bill without incurring payment card fee overhead, we can't generate and submit our own batches directly to any clearinghouse. Is that possible in any country? I've never heard of a banking system where ordinary people directly submit a t…

As far as I know, yes, and UPI/"FedNow"/Cashapp-and-friends don't change that.

That being so, if I'm honest I'm not really sure where the prior commenter's objection originates. Maybe they know about some directly accessible clearinghouse that I don't? I'd be surprised for several reasons to learn such a thing exists, but I've been surprised plenty of times before.

Re: Fed announces details of new interbank service to support instant payments

#306

Post by dataflow »

throwanem wrote: post #305
dataflow wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the distinction being made there is that, while individuals can request that banks or businesses perform an ACH on our behalf, as in your funds transfer example or to pay a bill without incurring payment card fee overhead, we can't generate and submit our own batches directly to any clearinghouse. Is that possible in any country? I've never heard of a banking system where ordinary people directly submit a t…

As far as I know, yes, and UPI/"FedNow"/Cashapp-and-friends don't change that. That being so, if I'm honest I'm not really sure where the prior commenter's objection originates. Maybe they know about some directly accessible clearinghouse that I don't? I'd be surprised for several reasons to learn such a thing exists, but I've been surprised plenty of times before.

Unless this is actually possible in some country, I think they're both confused. But I'm guessing the objection was probably intended to convey "this is just as 'direct' in the US as it is in Australia", which would seem like a valid objection to the article.

Re: Fed announces details of new interbank service to support instant payments

#307

Post by agustif »

lightgreen wrote: post #230
rafaelturk wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well documented json

Any protocol with schema is better than well documented anything. I’d pick protobuf. Or json with schema if json is preferred. Schema works on machines, good documentation is work for humans.

But you can aut-generate the docs from code/schema!

Re: Fed announces details of new interbank service to support instant payments

#308

Post by Broken_Hippo »

pricechild wrote: post #293
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding #3: In general - from my time working at a phone company call center some years back - it is a much better indicator of security to ask folks to verify some account information than to try to say someone is doing something fraudulent by judging whether or not the sound of their voice matches what I think it should sound like based on their name. Verifying information tends to mean that the person has permis…

Related, though not necessarily in reply: HSBC in the UK have a system they call "Voice ID" which claims to authenticate you by your voice: https://www.hsbc.co.uk/ways-to-bank/phone-banking/ I've not enrolled...

Yeah, I don't blame you. What if I have a strong head cold? Can folks that mimic voices trick it?

Fingerprints are fairly unique, but not necessarily special to you and only you. I really don't know if voice is even that special or if this is more like a car door lock: It's ok so long as there is enough verification.

Re: Fed announces details of new interbank service to support instant payments

#309

Post by cymon »

This is quite a shame on the US part to be so much behind the times:

Kenya has had a Real-Time Gross Settlement (RTGS) system for years supported by the central bank which works in near-realtime during working hours, and an even better one was recently introduced by a conglomeration of the local banks which works in real-time 24/7 called Pesalink: https://www.ipsl.co.ke/pesalink ..

Re: Fed announces details of new interbank service to support instant payments

#310

Post by Maximus9000 »

Tehdasi wrote: post #128
lelc wrote: post #84

If anyone from the FED is reading this I have this advice: don't use ISO20022! (I've been working on the brazilian instant payments project, known as PIX). It's an overly-complicated-try-to-solve-everything standard that promises interoperability but only delivers pain and misery. Since each country has its own standards for person and account identification, in dealing with these local realities, the ISO20022 adds q…

Incidentally, the Australian equivilant of this (NPP) is going with ISO20022.

Canada is too
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