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Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

reuters.com

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Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#141

Post by throwaway1yf »

knzhou wrote: post #92
zozin wrote: post #42

The thought of living in a China-centric world during the twilight of my life on Earth (2050+) makes my hair stand on end. I do not want to be treated as a second class human because of the color of my skin or my ethnicity. I do not want to lose business and professional opportunities because I am not Han. I do not want to live in a world where freedom of speech and expression are long lost memories, where even the r…

This is the kind of comment that makes me know there's no hope for HN. The color of your skin has bought you a lot. When you were a kid, my parents were making a dollar a day. When your parents were kids, my grandparents were facing famine. Now, finally, for the first time in all of modern history, a large group of non-white people has escaped crushing poverty. They're not rich by any means. You'd still be richer tha…

> a large group of non-white people has escaped crushing poverty, but at the very fucking least Chinese people are no longer starving to death by the millions.

I'm pretty sure skin colour isn't related to poverty, maybe you can blame chairman Mao for that.

> this tiny measure of progress and hope

So you suggest all the bad things happened to Uyghurs and Han people can be justified with economic growth? That's just a lame argument used by the CCP all the time.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#142

Post by Aunche »

zozin wrote: post #42

The thought of living in a China-centric world during the twilight of my life on Earth (2050+) makes my hair stand on end. I do not want to be treated as a second class human because of the color of my skin or my ethnicity. I do not want to lose business and professional opportunities because I am not Han. I do not want to live in a world where freedom of speech and expression are long lost memories, where even the r…

Unlike the US, China hasn't been interested in exporting its form of government since the Cold War. If anything, they'd prefer if their rivals stayed more democratic and free, so it's easier to make money and spread propaganda there.

Also keep in mind that China is making way more enemies than friends these days, so there is no way the world is going to be China-centric to the extent that you're worried about.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#143

Post by knzhou »

Reelin wrote: post #137
knzhou wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think agitating for World War III was productive to start with? I pointed out rationally and straightforwardly where such extreme opinions come form.

> agitating for World War III I read the original comment as being against it but wondering if it's an inevitable outcome. That's a very reasonable thing to want to discuss - many of the respondents here (including myself) appear not to share the view that it's inevitable. > I pointed out rationally and straightforwardly You mean the part where you literally made things up about what the other party thought?

What he directly said is that he thinks the prospect of there being a single non-white country not being crushingly poor "makes his hair stand on end", supplanted with some typical yellow peril fearmongering. I simply completed his thought.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#144

Post by aww_dang »

ffggvv wrote: post #126
knzhou wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before I answer that, you are aware that we casually started two wars last decade that directly killed 200,000 innocent civilians, right? And that we reliably do that every other decade?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism communist tactics haven’t changed

It is a stock trope for these discussions at this point.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#145

Post by puranjay »

aww_dang wrote: post #54
zozin wrote: post #42

The thought of living in a China-centric world during the twilight of my life on Earth (2050+) makes my hair stand on end. I do not want to be treated as a second class human because of the color of my skin or my ethnicity. I do not want to lose business and professional opportunities because I am not Han. I do not want to live in a world where freedom of speech and expression are long lost memories, where even the r…

Looking at the historical record, an implosion of the CCP and infighting seems equally likely.

Historically, China has never been an aggressively expansionist actor. Don't know if the CCP China would abide by the same values though

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#146

Post by jariel »

88840-8855 wrote: post #122

This is going to be very unpopular. History repeats itself. Just 30 years ago the Soviet Union was dissolved. If you study this dissolution process, you see that demonstrations and the ambition to sovereignty was nothing new in the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact, but in comparison to the 50s, 60s and 70s, Gorbachev did not use military force to prevent countries from splitting off. If China lets HK go independent,…

I don't see this comparison.

PRC has total control over mainland China. There is 0 risk of fragmentation.

HK is a separate entity in every sense, so is Taiwan.

USSR collapsed because its economic and political system crumbled from the inside, enabling Poland et. al. to get out from under their thumb, which is what they always wanted to do.

If China had economic turmoil, mainland would stay intact in one way or another.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#148

Post by indigo945 »

kurthr wrote: post #95
moreorless wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an anecdote, I hear people call out the CPC in public places in China.

I wonder if this is either very recent (since I haven't been there in over 6 months) or fairly old (before Xi took power). I could hear regular complaints about corruption, governance, and even government, but not the party itself (or particularly and most recently Xi). Granted I've mostly been in northern and central/western China rather than the south, but Guandong and Shenzhen didn't seem that different except for…

I was in Shanghai in the winter, and I definitely heard some criticism of Xi in particular. I agree that people don't really like to talk about the party, but even that depends on context and setting.

There is definitely a cultural barrier there, around what "politics" even means and the role it should play. Most Chinese people are very jaded in general, and consider all politics, in China and abroad, to be nothing but an expression of entrenched power. As a result, democracy is often seen as an unachievable ideal that also doesn't exist in the west, particularly not in the USA.

In effect, this also means that Westerner's questions about Chinese politics can appear nonsensical or even naive to Chinese people. This is also why people are more likely to talk about corruption, as that is an evil that is considered possible to fight against.

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#149

Post by Reelin »

knzhou wrote: post #143
Reelin wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> agitating for World War III I read the original comment as being against it but wondering if it's an inevitable outcome. That's a very reasonable thing to want to discuss - many of the respondents here (including myself) appear not to share the view that it's inevitable. > I pointed out rationally and straightforwardly You mean the part where you literally made things up about what the other party thought?

What he directly said is that he thinks the prospect of there being a single non-white country not being crushingly poor "makes his hair stand on end", supplanted with some typical yellow peril fearmongering. I simply completed his thought.

> he thinks the prospect of there being a single non-white country not being crushingly poor "makes his hair stand on end"

As I previously pointed out, that is absolutely not what was said. Please stop making things up.

Concern was expressed about the racism against those who are not Han which currently exists in China. The original commenter professed a fear of what that would look like for outsiders in a China-centric world.

You appear (IMO) to be trying to distract from the fact that there is racism within China today. (As there is, of course, in many other places to varying extents - including but certainly not limited to the US.)

Re: Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai arrested under national security law

#150

Post by simonh »

throwaway-semi wrote: post #36

Why are we empowering this regime? Shouldn't we force companies like Apple to make a statement of why they manufacture their goods in China? Apple is happy make a statement about BLM - it is cheap, doesn't cost them anything. But when it comes to things that actually harm profits and challenge shareholder responsibilities, they stay mum. We need to force Apple (and other giant corporations) to speak up about atrociti…

If it is immoral for Apple to do business in China, then why is it moral for Mr. Lai or anyone in Hong Kong to do business in China? This smacks as a pretty partisan double standard, and I have to wonder what you have against Apple that you would single them out in this way.

Hong Kong and people like Mr. Lai has always done business in China and there's nothing reprehensible about that, nor is it reprehensible for any other business to legally carry on it's business in the same way. This is about individual freedom, free speech and political liberties, of which trade is one and criticising others for exercising their freedoms is the antithesis of that. Mr Lai made his fortune exercising those freedoms and I very much doubt he would say doing so now is in any way wrong. The way to fight this is by arguing and fighting for freedoms, not against them.

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