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Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

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Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#31
post #8

I’m not a fan of comparisons to the Hippocratic oath. The greatest risk to AI ethics is not the ethics of software engineers but the ethics of the software engineering process. By the time tasks are handed to engineers, most of the ethical decisions have been made by product managers, designers, and business stakeholders who are focused on their own goals. Software engineers are accountable to their bosses before the…

I agree, however not all ethics can be legislated.

This sort of thing works in other professions like medicine because malpractice can cause doctors to lose their license. Same with civil engineers. This changes things because the choice is now quitting or possibly never being able to work in the field again.

Perhaps principal software engineers in charge of life or death software should be licensed for accountability, “engineer on record”.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#32
Doctors no longer take the Hippocratic Oath (because it is incompatible with a lot of difficult situations doctors are placed in).

But more to the point: Why are we trying to shift focus from the wrongs large multi-nationals do to individual software engineers? Plus what would the result be if this "oath" conflicts with a manager's instructions?

Maybe we should start with Microsoft, Google, Comcast, Oracle, and similar taking an oath to do no harm, before we push engineers under the bus for not fighting hard enough against what they're ordered to do.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#33
We need a Hippocratic Oath for the medical profession. How many doctors honestly "First do no harm"? Seriously, my father was killed by them and my best friend was seriosly injured. If they would have never visited doctors they would still be alive or still walking.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#34
We should aim for having a "Hippocratic Oath" in place for the CEO's, board, and other business leadership too.

They're the one's who's "interesting" ethics are responsible for the things mentioned in the article.

The engineers wouldn't generally even attempt to implement the concerns in the article unless directed by their organisational higher-ups.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#35
post #8

I’m not a fan of comparisons to the Hippocratic oath. The greatest risk to AI ethics is not the ethics of software engineers but the ethics of the software engineering process. By the time tasks are handed to engineers, most of the ethical decisions have been made by product managers, designers, and business stakeholders who are focused on their own goals. Software engineers are accountable to their bosses before the…

Being expected to behave ethically is part of being an Engineer regardless of what your boss expects. Now we increasingly see real world negative consequences of the work of software engineers I don't see why they should be any different.

Is behaving ethically not a part of being a designer or a PM or a director/boss?

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#36

The ACM Code of Ethics and Professional Conduct has been around for a while and surely is a good start. But if you read through it, you'll quickly come to the conclusion that unless leadership buys into it your only real option is to quit your job if asked to do something you shouldn't. https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics

That's the whole point of a professional code of ethics. If you want to protect people for behaving ethically, that's government's job (c.f. whistleblower laws et. al.).

This sits a layer down in the defense-in-depth stack. And the idea is that if there's a recognized code, and consensus on what constitutes a violation, that employers will conform because if they don't they'll risk not just one "activist" employee leaving but most of them, out of a shared sense of communal ethics.

Would it work? No idea. My experience is that software people tend to be pretty squishy on matters of personal ethics.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#37
When I was taking CS Engineering UG course(IN~2008), there was an elective subject(have to be chosen by entire class) called 'Engineering Ethics'. It was a preferred elective as there was no course work and I think there were no tests as well.

I remember the professor starting the class as,

>"If a Structural/Civil Engineer builds a bridge and it goes down, he/she will go to jail; lucky for you guys there are no ethics for computer science".

Last time when I said this, I was told there's no way a Structural/Civil Engineer goes to jail if a bridge goes down. May be its more common in India, could be very well be the norm because every time a bridge goes down a related Engineer gets arrested the very same day or soon under 'Causing death by negligence'; perhaps a practice from colonial era still being practiced to pacify public.

Read:

Another BMC engineer arrested in Mumbai bridge collapse(2019)[1]

Bhubaneswar flyover collapse: Engineer, director of construction firm arrested(2017)[2]

4 Engineers Arrested In Kolkata Flyover Collapse Case(2016)[3]

IIT Roorkee: Two professors arrested in bridge collapse case(2015)[4]

SMC engineer held in bridge collapse case suspended(2014)[5]

Gammon, Hyundai officials arrested, probe ordered(2009)[6]

I'm sure you can pull up such cases going back at least 200 years.

[1]https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/current-affairs/02041...

[2]https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/bhubaneswar-flyove...

[3]https://www.ndtv.com/kolkata-news/4-engineers-arrested-in-ko...

[4]https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/iit-roorkee-two-profes...

[5]http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/38044181.cms

[6]https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/kota-bridge-collapse-30-dead...

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#38
"Engineering ethics" is a fallacy as it implies that engineers have high level influence on the goals set by organizations. If lockheed martin trained all of its missile engineers in ethics would they suddenly start building bombs that burst with flowers? Obviously not. Engineers are paid to design things against a very specific set of requirements. If an average engineer pushes back on ethical grounds they will simply be replaced.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#40
post #8

I’m not a fan of comparisons to the Hippocratic oath. The greatest risk to AI ethics is not the ethics of software engineers but the ethics of the software engineering process. By the time tasks are handed to engineers, most of the ethical decisions have been made by product managers, designers, and business stakeholders who are focused on their own goals. Software engineers are accountable to their bosses before the…

> Software engineers are accountable to their bosses before their users, no matter how high minded we like to pretend to be.

I agree to a very limited extent about the hierarchical nature of a typical corporation, but I also disagree. Software engineers at a certain level of their career and with relatively uncommon skills can pick and choose what companies they want to work at. In my opinion people of good moral character and conscience need to be prepared to refuse to accept a position at companies known to engage in activities against their principles. And further need to be prepared to resign if they are asked to do something clearly unethical.

From my particular specialization in network engineering, I would never accept a role at an ISP in an environment where I had to implement something like the GFW in China, or further walled-garden/censorship of the global Internet. It's directly contradictory to my principles. I sincerely hope that the best and the brightest of my colleagues would never choose to aid and abet internet-fuckery by autocratic regimes. If people from my field look at a project and could reasonably say "Vint Cerf would be really disappointed if he saw me implementing this...", I hope they will choose to walk away.

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