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Hiroshima (1946)

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Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#111

Post by pengaru »

I happen to have just started reading the book Made In Japan, and the first chapter's title is War.

It's been a good read so far. I found it quite interesting to hear about the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings from the perspective of a young Japanese technician working in the war effort at the time.

A lot of comments in here are throwing around terms like "war crime". I'm not well informed on this subject, but the impression I get from this book at least, wasn't one of anger and accusation of wrongdoing WRT the bombings.

It comes across more as a humble acceptance of defeat, and perhaps a subtle criticism of his own nation's propaganda-washed populous, military-dominated leadership and authority, than anything accusing the Americans of committing war crimes.

He describes the bombings as clearly demonstrating how far behind Japan was technologically. Up until that point he had the impression that Japanese military technology was only slightly behind the Americans, based on reverse engineered equipment recovered from downed planes.

The thing I wonder is if the Americans could have just dropped a single bomb first on a relatively unpopulated area, near enough to a Japanese population center to witness its destructive force, without all the loss of civilian life. They might have surrendered after that. You still have the second bomb if they don't get the message. But I guess there wasn't exactly 100% certainty both bombs would function, and I don't know how long it would take to make another at the time - it's not like we had a huge stockpile of the enriched fissile material laying around.

In any case, so far I'd recommend the book, and I haven't even gotten to the stuff about Sony yet.

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#112

Post by refurb »

pmachinery wrote: post #43
missedthecue wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that the military is still awarding Purple Hearts that were manufactured for the invasion of Japan tells me that it was more than justified. Japanese intelligence itself estimated 20 million casualties during an invasion.

Regardless of the number, there was no need to invade Japan. It was already defeated, and offering to surrender, before the USSR joined the fight. Totally surrounded/blockaded, no allies left in the world, bombed at will, what else could it do but accept defeat?

what else could it do but accept defeat?

The counter argument for that is it took two atomic bombs for Japan to concede. And after the 2nd one it was 3 days before they gave up.

Could a blockade have worked? Maybe. But how long would it have taken? Would we all just sat and watched while hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians starved to death over a few years?

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#113

Post by goto11 »

EarthIsHome wrote: post #13
supernova87a wrote: post #3

When I was young in grade school, and learned about the bomb, and its terrifying aftermath, pictures, scars, I thought that this was clearly a wrong against humanity to have been dropped on anyone. Clearly the visceral kind of "this should never happen" reaction that any average person would have. "How could we put the Enola Gay on a stamp to glorify this?" Then, in college and especially after, learning about the eq…

For those interested in arguments about whether the bombings were necessary, there's a good Wikipedia article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombi... I do believe the bombings were a strategic show-of-force to the Soviet Union since they were coming out of the war as a global power; USSR were instrumental in ending the war.

At the time I don't think there were any serious discussions about whether the bombs where "necessary". They where a powerful new weapon, and the US was in the middle of a war. Of course they were going to use it, it is unimaginable that thew would decide not to use a powerful weapon which was available to them.

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#114

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

dreamcompiler wrote: post #86
xenocyon wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who grew up outside of the US, I have found that Americans have a unique view on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. American schoolchildren are raised to believe that it was morally justified because it won - and therefore ended - the war. This attitude is so deeply and fundamentally ingrained into most Americans (including many who would self-identify as liberals) that it is very hard for them to see it as a war cri…

It is hard to overstate how many civilians suffered and died in war crimes perpetrated by Japan before and during the war. The number vastly exceeds the number who died as a result of the American atomic bombs. Breaking Japan's will and ability to make war was the entire world's highest priority in late 1945. Any discussion of "American war crimes against Japan" is meaningless without discussing Japan's crimes agains…

> "It is hard to overstate how many civilians suffered and died in war crimes perpetrated by Japan before and during the war"

I'll take a stab at it.

If one sums together the estimated deaths in Asia caused by Japan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties), both military and civilian, one gets totals in excess of 15-22 million. This compares to about 5 million dead in the Holocaust. So basically, Japan effectively committed 3 to 4 Holocausts, a fact not often remarked upon in these discussions. If we compare that to the roughly 0.25 million estimated dead from Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined, the US would have had to drop 40 more atomic bombs to catch up to the Germans and another 120-176 atomic bombs to catch up to the Japanese. (If one likes, they can subtract out military casualties or otherwise adjust the numbers but the ratios are still high.)

One should also factor in that the Nazis simply executed the majority of the victims of the Holocaust as efficiently as they could in concentration camps. The deaths inflicted during the IJA occupation, on the other hand was accompanied by rape and by torture, including on children, across significant parts of a continent. It's notable that even a diehard Nazi who was in China was so revolted by what he was witnessing that he intervened to protect civilians from the IJA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe. Given the option, it doesn't seem unlikely that many of the IJA's victims would have preferred a death by nuclear blast; at least it would have been impersonal.

So, were Hiroshima and Nagasaki war crimes? I think it's not unreasonable to say that even if they were, they were negligible in the grand scheme of things.

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#115

Post by Keyframe »

hutzlibu wrote: post #46
manfredo wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Necessity and justification are two different concepts. Few believe it was necessary - the United States' overwhelming industrial capacity was bound to prevail over Japan. The state of the two countries warmaking capacity was totally lopsided by 1945. Thus it was not necessary to achieve victory. That is brought an end to the war with fewer casualties, both American and Japanese even moreso, is not a difficult claim…

Yes, but maybe the bombs would have had the same effect, if dropped on actual military targets (or even unhabitated land, but close enough to demonstrate the power) instead of an civilian city. (a city with military production, sure sure, but they were choosen not because of military value, but because they were relatively undamaged, so the effect of the bombs could be studied. Concern for loss of japan civilian live…

It was discussed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_a...

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#116

Post by refurb »

renewiltord wrote: post #19
eska wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My school education about this was also essentially "bombs are bad, kids". The Wikipedia article ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_a... ) is actually quite enlightening in this matter. A lot of people seem to think that the Americans didn't try anything else before. Likewise most people don't realize how much more death there would've been on both sides if the US invaded Japan by sea.

It strikes me as odd that practically any victorious military finds all of its actions optimal. If it had not done as it did, then the outcomes would be worse. The regularity of the superiority of the action taken is fascinating. Curiously, this website has a large number of commentators that believe that luck is one of the biggest factors in startup success. Yet, in this other domain of antagonistic participants, wa…

Well, historical narratives are often oversimplified.

If you dig deep into retrospective analyses of wars, you’ll find plenty of discussion about mistakes, missed opportunities and just dumb luck.

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#117

Post by Melting_Harps »

valuearb wrote: post #91
rbecker wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious where you found this information, because the best I could find was that negotiations regarding those conditions were never finished: To this end, Stalin and Molotov strung out the negotiations with the Japanese, giving them false hope of a Soviet-mediated peace. [..] The Japanese would have to surrender unconditionally to all the Allies. To prolong the war, the Soviets opposed any attempt to weaken this…

That is a reference to what the Russians wanted, and this is after the nuclear bombs. Once the bombs were dropped terms acceptable to some of the Japanese changed. Japan wasn’t a monolithic government, you had competing leadership, the empowered, the military, the politicians, etc. The military fervently wanted a US invasion, believing it could inflict millions of casualties and then negotiate better terms. And many…

> Japan wasn’t a monolithic government, you had competing leadership, the empowered, the military, the politicians, etc.

Many of who resumed as they did during the War in the re-construction phase, I highly recommend the book: A Nazi in Exile. Its about Martin Bormann, a high ranking SS lieutenant close to Hitler who was already making deals in what seemed like the inevitable defeat of Germany, Italy and Japan by 1943-44 or so and starting to ensure it funneled its funds out of Germany into Switzerland and helped the biggest corporations (on both sides) continue to thrive in the post-war economy.

Many of whom still remain as monoliths to this day.

I think all this does is re-enforce General Butler's claim that: War is a racket. Everything else is just footnotes that often contradict and conflict with one another to obscure the obvious fact that no one 'wins' in War except a very small collective few in Banks, Industry that shape war policy for other Poor people to fight.

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#118

Post by pmoleri »

supernova87a wrote: post #3

When I was young in grade school, and learned about the bomb, and its terrifying aftermath, pictures, scars, I thought that this was clearly a wrong against humanity to have been dropped on anyone. Clearly the visceral kind of "this should never happen" reaction that any average person would have. "How could we put the Enola Gay on a stamp to glorify this?" Then, in college and especially after, learning about the eq…

> Which if it had continued, could have consumed far more lives.

Everything along these lines are counterfactual excercises and a nice way of justify the crime of dropping nuclear bombs on cities full of civilians. I don't buy this. And something we all know is that history is told by the victors.

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#119

Post by programmingpol »

I highly recommend The Making of the Atomic Bomb. I listened to the audiobook last year. It starts with the scientific advances, beginning in the late 19th century, and continues up through the achievement of a chain reaction and the dropping of the bombs on Japan. The final part of the book, detailing the eyewitness accounts of the bombings, is the most harrowing thing I’ve ever listened to.
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