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5G Just Got Weird

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Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#191
post #50
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t really see 5G solving rural broadband issues. You still need to lay backhaul line from the node Bs, and 5G requires more of them, so it’s not orders of magnitude cheaper than running cable to home.

A lot of rural areas have backbone just fine. It's the last mile that's the issue. You can find gigabit business internet basically anywhere.

Right, but many 5G technologies necessitate small cell size, which also creates a last mile issue.

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AR glasses for example, could totally upend all of this and require 5G low latency 5G "low latency": I'm not impressed with "1-2 ms" first hop latency; 0.1 ms should be achievable by now, surely. AR over networks: Maybe. But I think having more compute out on the edge nodes is going to deliver more for us in the long term than faster comms. Every extra millisecond in the rendering pipeline decreases the usability o…

Carmack famously quipped that "I can send an IP packet to Europe faster than I can send a pixel to the screen" [1]. For VR and AR to break through, they're going to have to be in a form factor that resembles normal glasses, and at a much higher render quality (4K+) than anything we've got now. That's almost certainly going to require rendering remotely Stadia / Xbox Cloud style, with some minimal local processing. [1…

I don’t know. As long as they can render in 4K the actual geometry can be fairly simple, so maybe my phone would be perfectly capable of that?

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#193

> In defining V2X for 5G, Seo says the most challenging thing was to provide high data throughput, reliability, and low latency, both of which are essential for anything beyond the most basic communications. Seo explains that earlier standards typically deal with messages with hundreds of bytes that are expected to reach 90 percent of receivers in a 300-meter radius within a few hundred milliseconds. The 3GPP standar…

This is what a quickly developing field feels like.

Say, in 10 years from 1985 to 1995, personal computer CPUs developed from 80286 @12MHz and 134k transistors to Pentium MMX @133MHZ and 3.3M transistors, with at least 100x improvement in integer performance alone, to say nothing about FPU and the vector unit (MMX). And another similar jump occurred in next 10 (well, 11) years when Intel unveiled the Core line of CPUs.

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be careful with expectations of "possible" vs. "practical". 5G for IoT devices is a big deal in remote field and some industrial settings where wi-fi is not an option. Two examples for you: I worked on a pilot project with a state government group that wanted remote monitoring of water levels in wetlands and ponds spread across a few hundred square miles of mostly-rural area. wi-fi obviously wasn't an option and gett…

Is it realistic to expect 5G coverage in rural wetlands? From what I understand, the range of a single 5G base station is significantly lower than 2/3/4G so they are having to install new cell sites in major towns and cities just for 5G coverage.

Probably since electronics has become so miniaturized and cheap, thinking of one cell per building or even one cell per light pole, wouldn't be that odd.

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AR glasses for example, could totally upend all of this and require 5G low latency 5G "low latency": I'm not impressed with "1-2 ms" first hop latency; 0.1 ms should be achievable by now, surely. AR over networks: Maybe. But I think having more compute out on the edge nodes is going to deliver more for us in the long term than faster comms. Every extra millisecond in the rendering pipeline decreases the usability o…

Carmack famously quipped that "I can send an IP packet to Europe faster than I can send a pixel to the screen" [1]. For VR and AR to break through, they're going to have to be in a form factor that resembles normal glasses, and at a much higher render quality (4K+) than anything we've got now. That's almost certainly going to require rendering remotely Stadia / Xbox Cloud style, with some minimal local processing. [1…

Well, or you could render on the phone and stream to the glasses.

I don’t think even 5G is low latency enough for what you’re describing—not even close. Stadia works because it’s not VR, so they have some latency headroom. For good VR (Valve Index, etc), you get around 20ms for the entire rendering chain.

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#196
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Try using LTE in a large city’s central train station at a busy time and see how you get on. There was some ad campaign in Helsinki about two or three years ago telling people to do just this to compare carriers. Telia, Dna, and all the others worked just fine at rush hour at the central station with 50mbps+

Ah, but Finland considers internet access a human right.

The point is that they were able to meet capacity with 4g towers. I'm not sure how that's related. I guess I should also point out that the population of the city is 600k people, so it may not carry over to something like NYC or Tokyo.

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But your case what enabled the emergence of mobile apps and associated markets was the apparition of affordable smartphones -that's what created a new ecosystem for tech and pseudotech companies to grow in. What new market is 5g enabling?

No, it's more than that. There was no YouTube in 2000. Web video for wired connections was shitty. MPEG-2 was the codec dujour. Progressive Networks/Real Networks was people's conception of online video. Netflix was shipping DVDs by snail mail. If the iPhone existed in 2000, there still couldn't have been a TikTok. AR glasses for example, could totally upend all of this and require 5G low latency, and fast accurate p…

I don't think people were watching streaming video on 3g, especially not with the data caps of the time. The improvement from 2g to 3g (in my experience at least) was literally just being able to load web pages without waiting minutes for it to finish (which is a huge improvement of course).

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around 2000, I was working at OracleMobile, attened 3GPP/Mobile Congress/etc meetings, and there was a similar discussion around 3g. People were like "what's the killer app"? At the time, most phones were WML/WAP and Blackberry-like SMS/MMS/Email experiences. People speculated "maybe music or video", but it was all very vague, no one imagined the smartphone revolution that brought all of these services, like Uber. I'…

The latency sensitive thing is supposed to be smart cars and roads. 5G is all about displacing terrestrial cable and telco to homes. (And profiting off of the carve out regulations around wireless. Most other applications don’t really care about latency. If anything, we’ve used software to move lower latency applications like voice to crowded, latent and unreliable networks.

Yes, this is true because wiring the house is annoying and people often don't realize how much it can help, and because there are other delays. But the big Internet companies have found that lowering latency will increase engagement. Lower latency should change how well video chat works even if people don't quite realize why it's better.

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's more than that. There was no YouTube in 2000. Web video for wired connections was shitty. MPEG-2 was the codec dujour. Progressive Networks/Real Networks was people's conception of online video. Netflix was shipping DVDs by snail mail. If the iPhone existed in 2000, there still couldn't have been a TikTok. AR glasses for example, could totally upend all of this and require 5G low latency, and fast accurate p…

> AR glasses for example, could totally upend all of this and require 5G low latency 5G "low latency": I'm not impressed with "1-2 ms" first hop latency; 0.1 ms should be achievable by now, surely. AR over networks: Maybe. But I think having more compute out on the edge nodes is going to deliver more for us in the long term than faster comms. Every extra millisecond in the rendering pipeline decreases the usability o…

Remember a frame at 144hz is still 7ms - assuming everything else in your pipeline doesn't add up to much, 1-2ms added from the network should be fine for a good VR experience as long as it's 99.99...% stable. If the latency is constantly changing (as it tends to do with wireless networks) it's going to be much more noticeable.

Graphics hardware keeps getting more powerful and cheaper though, I don't think cloud rendering is going to get more useful over time compared to just rendering on the phone and using cloud streaming for big assets.

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#200

5G doesnt seem like its enabling anything fundamentally new. The talk of any ”killer app” based on having more throughput or on these optimizations always feels like demand generation and slightly inauthentic. Are there any technologies enabled by these techniques that are not possible today?

5G enables IoT data sharing, in case of Self Driving Car, nearby car should be able to share maps with each other fast enough and conveniently enough, and use that to optimize best route and avoid accidents. 5G is vital to develop next gen self driving technologies. With this kind of sharing enabled, cars can be equipped with less expensive radar and still achieve a higher accuracy.
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