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5G Just Got Weird

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Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#181

Post by cromwellian »

tuatoru wrote: post #157
cromwellian wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's more than that. There was no YouTube in 2000. Web video for wired connections was shitty. MPEG-2 was the codec dujour. Progressive Networks/Real Networks was people's conception of online video. Netflix was shipping DVDs by snail mail. If the iPhone existed in 2000, there still couldn't have been a TikTok. AR glasses for example, could totally upend all of this and require 5G low latency, and fast accurate p…

> AR glasses for example, could totally upend all of this and require 5G low latency 5G "low latency": I'm not impressed with "1-2 ms" first hop latency; 0.1 ms should be achievable by now, surely. AR over networks: Maybe. But I think having more compute out on the edge nodes is going to deliver more for us in the long term than faster comms. Every extra millisecond in the rendering pipeline decreases the usability o…

Even if you had no issues in rendering latency, you're overlooking the data aspect. Any open-world AR, is going to be continuously downloading and discovering new geometry, models, textures, mobile programs, as you walk around.

Let's say you walk up to a restaurant. As you look at it, you see a virtual waitress outside. The you can see the menu floating there, interact with virtual food models, interact with a fully animated and articulated intelligent agent. This all has to load dynamically in a an "AR Web"-like environment (no way you're going to download and install an APP per local brick and mortar).

For this to scale, and not have hideous load times, there's got to be some kind of quad-tree/oct-tree like index (or other spatial acceleration structure) that's streams in, LOD streaming, and for this to work, the "sidelinking" stuff they talk about will be a huge boon.

Because the "internet of things" in an AR world isn't an "internet of PHYSICAL things" like door locks and web cams, but also an "internet of VIRTUAL things" to control, like virtual vending machines to order food. That means somewhere nearby, there's a next-gen router-like device, that offers side-linking, and has an IP service in it serving up assets to you. Now, it could go up through your phone carrier, through the internet backbone, into a cloud provider, or it could avoid that round trip and talk directly to the restaurant's "virtual POS" 5g device.

Point is, we don't know how this is all going to work yet, and it's very premature for people to pooh pooh the use cases for higher bandwidth or lower latency.

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#183

Post by tuatoru »

ksec wrote: post #54
elil17 wrote: post #2

As I’ve learned more and more about 5G (which is a nebulous term, really, but what I mean specifically is the planned upcoming releases of LTE 16 and 17, as well as the features of LTE 14 and 15 that users have yet to take advantage of) I’ve become convinced that it’s going to transform how so much of the world is designed. 5G technologies allow for more devices to send more data using less power. This is achieved us…

>releases of LTE 16 and 17 Nitpicking, 3GPP Rel 16 / 17. There is no such thing as LTE 16 :) But generally yes. 5G is basically a much better 4G.

Any chance we could get that standards committee to re-do bluetooth? :-)

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#184

Post by partyboat1586 »

jiggawatts wrote: post #169
partyboat1586 wrote: post #133

Someone debunk this for me please: http://www.5gappeal.eu/about/ Edit: I'm legitimately looking for good sources on this. Not trolling.

An easy way to debunk it is to point out that the RF power spectrum of a typical 5G device is basically the same as a 4G or 3G device. The battery sizes are the same! It's not like suddenly every mobile phone is hooked up to a Tesla battery and got water cooling so that it can put out kilowatts. The difference between 3G, 4G, and 5G is largely the protocol , not the radio power! The reason we can have 5G now, and not…

Thank you, that was a very interesting technical overview. I agree people are mostly having an emotional reaction because they feel their boundaries are being crossed but I think a few could be convinced by this argument.

The ones that won't be convinced are those that believe 4g and 3g are also bad, the ones who were against cell phones when they first came out. You've probably seen them draw the correlation between cell phone use and brain tumors. They believe there is some as yet unknown mechanism by which non ionising radiation can cause cancer. I believe the most common explanation they use is that they don't believe in a cell membrane and instead in a potential field through which molecules pass based on their charge. Supposedly because EF radiation changes the magnetic field around the cells it causes increased permeability resulting in some unwanted molecules disrupting the cell.

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#185

Post by crazygringo »

kungato wrote: post #75
Havoc wrote: post #73

>5G for cars to communicate with each other That's pretty good news. Even a simple "sharp braking" type coms between cars has decent potential to save lives beyond what can be achieved with radar & the like.

How do you avoid bad actors in these scenarios? Sounds ripe for general havoc, targeting specific people etc

With laws, same as anything.

Ensure signals are sent with identifying information (which license plate sent it), and you get 20 years in prison for falsifying the signal or sending it incorrectly, plus whatever manslaughter/murder charges come on top of that.

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#186

Post by inefficient »

thinkingkong wrote: post #11

5G doesnt seem like its enabling anything fundamentally new. The talk of any ”killer app” based on having more throughput or on these optimizations always feels like demand generation and slightly inauthentic. Are there any technologies enabled by these techniques that are not possible today?

I think the biggest thing I have seen that is a reasonable use of the tech is game streaming. Stadia, XCloud, Geforce Now.

5G with low latency and unlimited data could be a game changer (pardon the pun) for mobile gaming. It works on 4G. I've tested. But you definitely run into latency issues.

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#187

Post by tuatoru »

justinclift wrote: post #19

Reading through this, it doesn't sound like the people involved considered the amount of outright misuse some of these features are likely to enable. Haven't we already seen bad actors will misuse mobile tech to track our movements, spy on people, (etc) on a wholesale scale? This seems to be wilfully charging down the road of making it worse?

This is my concern also.

5G will be great for advertisers, insurance companies, police forces, totalitarian governments and NSA-type organisations. (It may be useful here and there for manufacturers, miners, and farmers.)

Oh well, carrying a smartphone was great while it lasted.

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#188

Post by Meandering »

downrightmike wrote: post #78
BigBalli wrote: post #60

5G will make Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, BLE, and NFC obsolete.

Not unless you want to control your connectivity/data. Imagine how bad ads will be if you can't block them and they follow you around without mercy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bXJ_obaiYQ

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#189

Post by xenonite »

cromwellian wrote: post #135
thinkingkong wrote: post #11

5G doesnt seem like its enabling anything fundamentally new. The talk of any ”killer app” based on having more throughput or on these optimizations always feels like demand generation and slightly inauthentic. Are there any technologies enabled by these techniques that are not possible today?

Around 2000, I was working at OracleMobile, attened 3GPP/Mobile Congress/etc meetings, and there was a similar discussion around 3g. People were like "what's the killer app"? At the time, most phones were WML/WAP and Blackberry-like SMS/MMS/Email experiences. People speculated "maybe music or video", but it was all very vague, no one imagined the smartphone revolution that brought all of these services, like Uber. I'…

super-high bandwidth and low-latency? Also given high reliability, I imagine remote drone-flight and remote car-driving.

Re: 5G Just Got Weird

#190

Post by ed25519FUUU »

xenonite wrote: post #189
cromwellian wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around 2000, I was working at OracleMobile, attened 3GPP/Mobile Congress/etc meetings, and there was a similar discussion around 3g. People were like "what's the killer app"? At the time, most phones were WML/WAP and Blackberry-like SMS/MMS/Email experiences. People speculated "maybe music or video", but it was all very vague, no one imagined the smartphone revolution that brought all of these services, like Uber. I'…

super-high bandwidth and low-latency? Also given high reliability, I imagine remote drone-flight and remote car-driving.

How do you get around the extremely poor range of 5G? Also, I’ve heard a lot of ISPs tout the download speed with 5G and almost none say how much the upload speed will be on their networks.
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