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Hiroshima (1946)

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Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#21

Post by purple-again »

Entwickler wrote: post #12
supernova87a wrote: post #3

When I was young in grade school, and learned about the bomb, and its terrifying aftermath, pictures, scars, I thought that this was clearly a wrong against humanity to have been dropped on anyone. Clearly the visceral kind of "this should never happen" reaction that any average person would have. "How could we put the Enola Gay on a stamp to glorify this?" Then, in college and especially after, learning about the eq…

I've heard the idea that atomic bombs were the deciding factor in ending the war is in large part American propaganda. The fact is the Soviets had far superior divisions (in both manpower and fire power) lined up against the Japanese in Manchuria, and shattered them within weeks. From wikipedia( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Japanese_War ), "Tsuyoshi Hasegawa's research has led him to conclude that the…

In the surrendering words of the emperor himself the atomic bomb is directly mentioned as one reason for the surrender.

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#22

Post by overkalix »

This is such a remarcable piece of writing. I'm sure among americans this is already somewhat of a classic but if you haven't read yet it do yourself a favor and take half an hour to read it.

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#23

Post by the_af »

renewiltord wrote: post #19
eska wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My school education about this was also essentially "bombs are bad, kids". The Wikipedia article ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_a... ) is actually quite enlightening in this matter. A lot of people seem to think that the Americans didn't try anything else before. Likewise most people don't realize how much more death there would've been on both sides if the US invaded Japan by sea.

It strikes me as odd that practically any victorious military finds all of its actions optimal. If it had not done as it did, then the outcomes would be worse. The regularity of the superiority of the action taken is fascinating. Curiously, this website has a large number of commentators that believe that luck is one of the biggest factors in startup success. Yet, in this other domain of antagonistic participants, wa…

> I have no problem with the death of those who would prefer my death

What about those who have no opinion one way or the other about your death, or are incapable of having an informed opinion, such as very young children?

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#24

Post by rland »

supernova87a wrote: post #3

When I was young in grade school, and learned about the bomb, and its terrifying aftermath, pictures, scars, I thought that this was clearly a wrong against humanity to have been dropped on anyone. Clearly the visceral kind of "this should never happen" reaction that any average person would have. "How could we put the Enola Gay on a stamp to glorify this?" Then, in college and especially after, learning about the eq…

We had a discussion about this in high school, I think my junior year. Most of these types of discussions were very lopsided, so the teacher would usually have to encourage people to take the “bad/unpopular” position somehow. But this one was right down the line in my class and produced a lively debate. I still think about it, but my opinion hasn’t changed — it was the correct decision.

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#25

Post by renewiltord »

the_af wrote: post #23
renewiltord wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It strikes me as odd that practically any victorious military finds all of its actions optimal. If it had not done as it did, then the outcomes would be worse. The regularity of the superiority of the action taken is fascinating. Curiously, this website has a large number of commentators that believe that luck is one of the biggest factors in startup success. Yet, in this other domain of antagonistic participants, wa…

> I have no problem with the death of those who would prefer my death What about those who have no opinion one way or the other about your death, or are incapable of having an informed opinion, such as very young children?

Well, this is a personal position so I don’t see the value in sharing it, but since you asked: I’d rather be alive and evil than dead and good. After all, alive and evil I can be redeemed and die good after a fulfilling life. If I win, presumably following generations will talk about my courage at having turned my life around and any detractors of mine will find themselves outdone by my supporters - who will either be more numerous or will have the ability to call my detractors hypocrites since they only exist by my actions.

So the children will die if they must die. And they will live if it does not affect victory.

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#26

Post by gambiting »

overkalix wrote: post #14
senand wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even assuming it did bring an end to the war: was it really necessary to drop two bombs for that?

I don't know how accurate this information is but they way it was completely explained to me, the Japanese government and population were not that affected by the first bomb in terms of morale. They had already suffered horrible large-scale bombings (e.g. Tokyo) and regardless of the initial effect, the US leadership had already decided to drop two bombs to give the impression that these bombs could keep coming 2-3 t…

Emperor Hirohito was nearly overthrown in an (unsuccessful)coup after he announced the desire to capitulate after the second bomb dropped, as his generals wanted the war to continue. So if anything, the two bombs were nearly not enough.

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#27

Post by [deleted] »

overkalix wrote: post #22

This is such a remarcable piece of writing. I'm sure among americans this is already somewhat of a classic but if you haven't read yet it do yourself a favor and take half an hour to read it.

[deleted]

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#28

Post by trhway »

Entwickler wrote: post #12
supernova87a wrote: post #3

When I was young in grade school, and learned about the bomb, and its terrifying aftermath, pictures, scars, I thought that this was clearly a wrong against humanity to have been dropped on anyone. Clearly the visceral kind of "this should never happen" reaction that any average person would have. "How could we put the Enola Gay on a stamp to glorify this?" Then, in college and especially after, learning about the eq…

I've heard the idea that atomic bombs were the deciding factor in ending the war is in large part American propaganda. The fact is the Soviets had far superior divisions (in both manpower and fire power) lined up against the Japanese in Manchuria, and shattered them within weeks. From wikipedia( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Japanese_War ), "Tsuyoshi Hasegawa's research has led him to conclude that the…

yes, USSR squashing Kwantung army may have naturally led to a scenario where USSR forces could flood down south into China, Korea, may be even invade the North Japan, etc. with US having no troops there to "meet" USSR forces like it happened in Europe. Whether USSR had such plans doesn't matter really.

It is very telling that USSR offensive on August 9 was according to the plans made together with US months in advance, and so US could hardly time the 2 bombs better - one on August 6 and another several hours after the start of the offensive - to make such an extremely clear message.

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#29

Post by renewiltord »

supernova87a wrote: post #3

When I was young in grade school, and learned about the bomb, and its terrifying aftermath, pictures, scars, I thought that this was clearly a wrong against humanity to have been dropped on anyone. Clearly the visceral kind of "this should never happen" reaction that any average person would have. "How could we put the Enola Gay on a stamp to glorify this?" Then, in college and especially after, learning about the eq…

A fascinating comparison with British steadfast resolve in the face of overwhelming force. Britons would fight on the beaches, and on the landing grounds and streets. They would never surrender, even against overwhelming odds.

Truly inspiring in comparison with the robotic obedience of the Japanese who would dig in to protect their island, whatever the cost may be.

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#30

Post by kingkawn »

supernova87a wrote: post #3

When I was young in grade school, and learned about the bomb, and its terrifying aftermath, pictures, scars, I thought that this was clearly a wrong against humanity to have been dropped on anyone. Clearly the visceral kind of "this should never happen" reaction that any average person would have. "How could we put the Enola Gay on a stamp to glorify this?" Then, in college and especially after, learning about the eq…

A quote from General Dwight D. Eisenhower, “Japan at the moment was seeking a way to surrender with a minimum loss of face. It wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.” There are more quotes, but basically everything you were taught about the necessity of wiping out hundreds of thousands of people in a flash was after the fact American propaganda to justify a war crime.
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