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Sweatpants Forever: How the Fashion Industry Collapsed

nytimes.com

51–60 of 369 posts

Re: Sweatpants Forever: How the Fashion Industry Collapsed

#51
From other thread: As a former fashion writer, the "fashion industry," reduces to a spectacle for selling perfume and cosmetics. Fashion itself is an expression of beliefs, power, and alignment that people buy clothes to participate in.

In this sense, fashion is to clothing what live music is to alcohol, or what journalism is to advertising. There is an underlying high-margin business that you use a spectacle to attract people into to sell them stuff. The talent for the spectacle exists in a local equilibrium that is largely oblivious to the economics that make it viable. Journalists are a great example of people who thought they were the money maker and remain in denial about the economics of their role of bringing readers to advertisers.

Fashion designers (like Jacobs in the article) appear to have the same conceit, where their role as the spectacle that draws in punters who buy super high margin smelly water, face paint, and snake oil lotions has been displaced. Covid has just been the coup de gras, where the fashion business has been steadily being polarized and dis-intermediated for at least a decade. A business that promised and re-sold proximity to fame was really taken out much earlier by Instagram and its influencer economy, where now everyone is famous for Warhol's 15 minutes, and the returns on investment in fame schemes are now much more diffuse.

The dynamic described in the article about luxury clothing in the end resembles the book and publishing business, where you are in effect consigning product to retailers, who make massive orders for their big box shops, then destroy you with returns. It's like how movies spent almost 100 years in in the popcorn and concessions business, and they've found totally new economics in the streaming game. Fixing fashion is the same class of problem as fixing journalism, publishing, music, movies, and arts in general, where the economics of getting people together to sell them complimentary high margin goods in the moment and place was decimated by social media, and now finished off by covid. These markets aren't dead, but they are now polarized, where the super high end is fine, and the absolute bottom will persist, but the lucrative middle is hollowed out. These fashion design brands made most of their money on middle market goods backed by over leveraged private equity investments and sunk costs in conglomerates, and that's why they're getting killed by this.

Fashion is the business of symbols and signifiers and there is infinite human demand for these (just as there is for stories, conflict/news, spectacle, etc), so future businesses using totally different modalities will pick up the slack to meet it, but reading fashion talent hand wringing about their market is like listening to journalists talk about the economics of publishing, hockey players discussing team ownership, or perhaps even us hackers talking about venture capital. What we think is meaningful and decisive, it's not meaningful and decisive.

Re: Sweatpants Forever: How the Fashion Industry Collapsed

#52
post #8

I'm saddened by the job losses, but the fashion industry (esp. the high end) seems nothing but a toxic drain on society and the environment. New "trends" dictated by celebrities and designers every year do nothing but sow personal insecurities and environmental destruction. Good riddance.

Yes, human “culture” and it’s “trends” are such a waste. Why can’t everybody just spend their entire lives staring at screens while dressed in tshirts, like us software engineers do? Those thousands of years of human history spent on emotionally-driven aesthetic pursuits like art, fashion, music, culinary tradition and architecture...what a waste of time and resources. If only we could be more robot-like and efficien…

Besides being a reductio ad absurdum[0] argument that ads nothing to the discussion, I'll address your comment.

Music, Art, Food, Literature and Architecture generally don't go out of style every 6 months (although companies are trying harder and harder to make it so).

Nor do they have the same toxic effect on the environment (possible exception: food?) and personal self esteem as high fashion.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Re: Sweatpants Forever: How the Fashion Industry Collapsed

#53
post #8

I'm saddened by the job losses, but the fashion industry (esp. the high end) seems nothing but a toxic drain on society and the environment. New "trends" dictated by celebrities and designers every year do nothing but sow personal insecurities and environmental destruction. Good riddance.

Yes, human “culture” and it’s “trends” are such a waste. Why can’t everybody just spend their entire lives staring at screens while dressed in tshirts, like us software engineers do? Those thousands of years of human history spent on emotionally-driven aesthetic pursuits like art, fashion, music, culinary tradition and architecture...what a waste of time and resources. If only we could be more robot-like and efficien…

Yes, culture and trends are a waste, when they are primarily a marketing tool to make people consume your product.

Look at history and you find plenty of examples how cultures and trends emerged and spread within parts of societies, then got dragged into the spotlight by people wanting to maximize profit of off it, selling soulless disposable shells of the originals.

Re: Sweatpants Forever: How the Fashion Industry Collapsed

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fast fashion, which was the dominant trend, has nothing to do with dressing up or looking one’s best.

High-end fashion is not fast fashion. I wear high-end shoes daily, some that have been resoled twice, having a 10-year lifespan each. I feel I stand out from the crowd when I appear in my don't remember-when-I-bought Hackett blazer and Liberty shirts. If you are a man, whatever looked good on Steve McQueen in the 70s would still give you the look today.

The one and only thing I own that sometimes gets remarked upon (other than various T-shirts) is a pair of custom-made hiking boots I own that are fairly distinctive and not at all common. (Also very comfortable and they've been repaired and resoled.)

Re: Sweatpants Forever: How the Fashion Industry Collapsed

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High-end fashion is not fast fashion. I wear high-end shoes daily, some that have been resoled twice, having a 10-year lifespan each. I feel I stand out from the crowd when I appear in my don't remember-when-I-bought Hackett blazer and Liberty shirts. If you are a man, whatever looked good on Steve McQueen in the 70s would still give you the look today.

>I feel I stand out from the crowd when I appear in my don't remember-when-I-bought Hackett blazer and Liberty shirts. Is that not an effect of marketing though? The only time i've ever felt like i've 'stood out in a crowd' is when I'm walking around in something utterly ridiculous, or filthy work clothes or something. To be honest, all the high end designer brands blend in to me and I can't be bothered to tell them…

> Is that not an effect of marketing though?

Above a given level, for sure. But you can tell the difference of a $20 shirt and a $100 from a distance. I am not sure about the $100+ range. If you check the brands I mentioned, they are not overly expensive (in London, UK you can find them at 50% now, at outlets even less), yet they are considered hard-to-beat.

> Because in the end, those designer clothes are pumped out in the same factories alongside Walmart crap.

The fabric, maybe, but the amount of time some workpiece requires can be vastly different and might require more experienced hands. This can be especially true for tricky materials, such as leather and wool.

> Some of the richest, most successful people i've ever met dressed in the same things other regular people do.

Yeah, if you are the emperor, you can be naked too. :)

> I'd rather stand out for my accomplishments and things I do

Me too. But not every decision is made on rational grounds and there is no 2nd try for first impression either. :)

Re: Sweatpants Forever: How the Fashion Industry Collapsed

#57
post #18
post #5

The collapse of the fashion industry does not mean the clothing industry will collapse. People still need clothing obviously (cheap and of good quality preferably). Also, what do we consider the fashion industry exactly? Most long term clothing trends seem to be dictated by a couple of factors. Consisting of: - practicality. Jeans are good example of this. It's cheap and practical clothing that lasts a long time. - c…

(All comments on culture US centric) - This thinking is why the men’s section is 1/4 as large as the women’s in most stores. Culturally for men clothing is supposed to be above all practical. There are 5 genres of men’s clothes - business (pressed shirts, suits), casual, workout, skater, and comfort (hoodie). Contrast this with the women’s section. Women have an expectation to express themselves and their personality…

> There are 5 genres of men’s clothes - business (pressed shirts, suits), casual, workout, skater, and comfort (hoodie).

There’s quite a bit of variation within those. Where I live, “casual” these days is usually something like Columbia PFG - the epitome of “dad clothes”, as my wife tells me. I tend to wear that pretty much exclusively. I substitute jeans for the shorts in winter and buy a new leather jacket about every 3-5 years. I pass my old one on to someone else.

Your point stands, though. As a man, my clothes are 100% based on practicality, and I often only discard them when they’re too worn to be presentable.

Re: Sweatpants Forever: How the Fashion Industry Collapsed

#58
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe that Taiwan somehow knew ahead of time that there was going to be a pandemic this year? How do you believe they knew that?

They knew that there was a continuous risk of a pandemic and prepared for one happening eventually . Just like we know there's a low risk of an entire server room going up in flames/water damage/lightning/getting hit by a truck driving into a building and that's why we have offsite backups even though we won't know when something is going to happen.

> They knew that there was a continuous risk of a pandemic

But I think so did every country.

Wasn't global pandemic at the top of almost every country's national security risk register? They knew it was likely, and they knew it was high-risk. I know for a fact it was at the top of the UK's public national security risk register.

You're perpetuating a silly myth that major western countries didn't know this was coming and didn't know it was a big risk.

Re: Sweatpants Forever: How the Fashion Industry Collapsed

#59
post #8

I'm saddened by the job losses, but the fashion industry (esp. the high end) seems nothing but a toxic drain on society and the environment. New "trends" dictated by celebrities and designers every year do nothing but sow personal insecurities and environmental destruction. Good riddance.

???

Every pound of vehicle mass that you've purchased beyond what was absolutely necessary to 'get from A to B' and every unnecessary bit of travel or vacation has produced considerably more 'waste' than anything a the 'high end' of fashion.

Seriously - this moral concern coming from the 'land of a billion not-necessarily-even-useful plastic gadgets'?

The 'high end' of fashion is mostly art and artisanal, paid for by the rich. Not essential, but not a big deal.

Furthermore, the article is not about even 'high end fashion' - it's about basic attire. If people want to walk around in branded underwear then fine, but this is literally 'Idiocracy, 2008' coming to life.

If there is possibly an issue with 'waste' it's definitely not towards the 'upper 1/2' of the industry wherein such pieces could be worn for a lifetime, rather, it's 'fast fashion' i.e. H&M and Zara. This is arguably wasteful.

Re: Sweatpants Forever: How the Fashion Industry Collapsed

#60
post #26
post #8

I'm saddened by the job losses, but the fashion industry (esp. the high end) seems nothing but a toxic drain on society and the environment. New "trends" dictated by celebrities and designers every year do nothing but sow personal insecurities and environmental destruction. Good riddance.

Couldn't agree more. High end fashion is woefully overpriced items that predominantly largely priced on their brand rather their functionality and material. While yes, you could make the same argument with technology, I can at least get a lot of value out of premium I've paid for Apple products like my seven year old MacBook Pro or five year old iPhone. And after working briefly in the fashion industry as a developer…

" I can at least get a lot of value out of premium I've paid for Apple products like my seven year old MacBook Pro or five year old iPhone."

I think you might have missed the fact that what you value is not what other people value.

At the 'high end' of fashion, there's an incredible degree of artisanal effort, and FYI most of those items are well made and will last a lifetime.

Using 'Apple' - which takes its design and pricing cues literally from the world of fashion and design, is actually an argument in favour of the industry, not against it.

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