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Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

nytimes.com

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Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#141

Post by kombucha111 »

kbutler wrote: post #122
justSayin000001 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More people have died from the weak and careless inaction of our president and his sycophant governors because of covid.

Trump's sycophantic governors with the most deaths: New York 32,817 Andrew Cuomo (D) New Jersey 15,924 Phil Murphy (D) California 10,083 Gavin Newsom (D) 58,824 of 160,976 of the US total https://covid19info.live/us/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_United_States_... The next few (Texas 8,817, Massachusetts 8,709, Florida 8,051) are Republican, then Democratic governors of Illinois 7,822, Pennsylvania 7,…

Casually leaves off Florida... you are cherry picking for partisan reasons.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#142

Post by klyrs »

syshum wrote: post #75
happytoexplain wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should be aware that I've talked to liberals in rural areas who feel physically threatened by far-right rhetoric. I.e. the "the only good democrat is a dead democrat" video, conservatives guarding voting locations with guns, the president encouraging both these examples, etc. A couple of them have taken up gun ownership specifically because of this fear . I absolutely sympathize with both sides, but being "very u…

I have never once encountered "far-right rhetoric. I.e. the only good democrat is a dead democrat", sounds more like authoritarian propaganda to me

Trump retweeted it. And yeah, it certainly does sound like authoritarian propaganda.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#143

Post by collyw »

djaque wrote: post #136
collyw wrote: post #2

Was anyone surprised by this? Defund / Abolish the police sound like the stupidest ideas ever.

You're falling for a strawman. Spend some time looking at the nuanced proposals for policing reform that go by the name "defund the police" and I am guessing that you agree with them a lot more than you think you do.

Having seen the bodycam footage from the police that has emerged recently, I think everyone supporting BLM have been falling for a strawman. George Floyd appears to be high as a kite, does practically nothing the police ask him to. The police appear to be pretty reasonable.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#144

Post by Tycho »

happytoexplain wrote: post #88
Tycho wrote: post #79

We can split hairs about 'defunding' vs 'abolishing', but I just get the distinct impression that many people have got no real idea about the threat that crime poses to the prosperity of a community (or city or state), and the effort that is required to keep it in check. The occasional misbehaviour of police officers is a small price to pay compared to the oppression and privation wrought by widespread crime.

Most of the examples that spurred this movement are killings that are disproportionately either negligent or depraved heart at the very least (let's pretend we can't form an argument that any of them were purposeful murders that were not necessary to save the officer). Even given this benefit of the doubt, it is still reasonable for independent citizens of a free nation to fight tooth and nail against such an assault…

You have to consider the stochastic nature of crime and policing. The size of the population, the size of the force, behaviour altered by substance abuse, the prevalence of deadly weapons, the mental toll of dealing with criminals every day, the presence of organised crime, the antagonism, the heat of the moment, the type of personality needed to want to do the job: of course you are going to end up with some bad encounters. That is the price of having police.

The price of not having police is the constant and imminent danger and cost of crime. We all have to avoid certain parts of our cities. Women can’t walk safely at night even in the “safe” parts. Children can’t be left unattended. Public goods are ruined by vandalism. The stabilising effect of family households is lost as many flee to safer locations. Property values languish. Nobody can invest in the area, lenders and insurers aren’t interested. Innocent people are brutalised and they can’t rely on the police to protect them. Violent criminals operate with impunity. These aren’t isolated incidents, this is a trend of misery.

And this will be the legacy of many of these BLM protests/riots. More misery heaped on the poorest communities. That’s why I say that many people seem to have no real idea about the trade-off.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#145

Post by DanBC »

Tycho wrote: post #144
happytoexplain wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the examples that spurred this movement are killings that are disproportionately either negligent or depraved heart at the very least (let's pretend we can't form an argument that any of them were purposeful murders that were not necessary to save the officer). Even given this benefit of the doubt, it is still reasonable for independent citizens of a free nation to fight tooth and nail against such an assault…

You have to consider the stochastic nature of crime and policing. The size of the population, the size of the force, behaviour altered by substance abuse, the prevalence of deadly weapons, the mental toll of dealing with criminals every day, the presence of organised crime, the antagonism, the heat of the moment, the type of personality needed to want to do the job: of course you are going to end up with some bad enc…

> of course you are going to end up with some bad encounters. That is the price of having police.

> The price of not having police is the constant and imminent danger and cost of crime. We all have to avoid certain parts of our cities. Women can’t walk safely at night even in the “safe” parts.

And yet many countries don't have police forces that are pathologically violent, and don't have no-go zones in their cities.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#146

Post by dTal »

Tycho wrote: post #144
happytoexplain wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the examples that spurred this movement are killings that are disproportionately either negligent or depraved heart at the very least (let's pretend we can't form an argument that any of them were purposeful murders that were not necessary to save the officer). Even given this benefit of the doubt, it is still reasonable for independent citizens of a free nation to fight tooth and nail against such an assault…

You have to consider the stochastic nature of crime and policing. The size of the population, the size of the force, behaviour altered by substance abuse, the prevalence of deadly weapons, the mental toll of dealing with criminals every day, the presence of organised crime, the antagonism, the heat of the moment, the type of personality needed to want to do the job: of course you are going to end up with some bad enc…

The point is that all of those bad things you cite are already the case for "the poorest communities". To the people who live there, the police are worse than useless - not only do they manifestly fail to prevent crime, but more people die when they turn up. That is where "defund the police" comes from.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#147

Post by syshum »

klyrs wrote: post #142
syshum wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never once encountered "far-right rhetoric. I.e. the only good democrat is a dead democrat", sounds more like authoritarian propaganda to me

Trump retweeted it. And yeah, it certainly does sound like authoritarian propaganda.

He retweeted a supporter video in which the person clearly said "Dead Politically" that was taken out of context by the media and other perpetually offended left wing people ironically in the exact way the person in the video said it would.

The cancel culture of the perpetually offended is simply insane

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#148

Post by shadowgovt »

miles7 wrote: post #138
shadowgovt wrote: post #34

If I understand correctly, the main call is for defunding the police, not abolishing them.

I think for most people defund sounds like “take away all funding for” which would be tantamount to abolishing.

That's not what it means when we do it to schools.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#149

Post by kbutler »

kombucha111 wrote: post #141
kbutler wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump's sycophantic governors with the most deaths: New York 32,817 Andrew Cuomo (D) New Jersey 15,924 Phil Murphy (D) California 10,083 Gavin Newsom (D) 58,824 of 160,976 of the US total https://covid19info.live/us/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_United_States_... The next few (Texas 8,817, Massachusetts 8,709, Florida 8,051) are Republican, then Democratic governors of Illinois 7,822, Pennsylvania 7,…

Casually leaves off Florida... you are cherry picking for partisan reasons.

Read again?

  "Florida 8,051"
Right after Texas and Massachusetts in descending order. Where did you think it should be?

And it looks like Florida has turned the corner on this later surge - new cases 14 day trend is dramatically down: https://coronavirusbellcurve.com/#fl new deaths is still trending upward, as would be expected for a lagging indicator of the case trend. It appears unlikely to get close to the results of New York, which has a similar (but less elderly) population. https://covid19-projections.com/us-fl

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#150

Post by klyrs »

syshum wrote: post #147
klyrs wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump retweeted it. And yeah, it certainly does sound like authoritarian propaganda.

He retweeted a supporter video in which the person clearly said "Dead Politically" that was taken out of context by the media and other perpetually offended left wing people ironically in the exact way the person in the video said it would. The cancel culture of the perpetually offended is simply insane

Sorry, what cancel culture? Who got cancelled here? Did you "never" hear him say the words "the only good democrat is a dead democrat," or are you actually familiar with the video that was originally mentioned that you previously denied the existence of?

And what does "politically dead" mean, anyway? Does it have anything to do with cancellation?

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