Earlier quoted context omitted.
Doesn't sound corporate to me at all. Corporate to me is things like "increase synergy". Respecting the opportunities available to you by showing respect for your competitors who are just like you at the end of the day seems like a pretty real and relatable recommendation.
If you need to remind yourself that you need to “respect the competition”, you’re probably a monopoly.
To head off regulators, Google makes certain words taboo
301–310 of 319 posts
Re: To head off regulators, Google makes certain words taboo
#302Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not convinced, though there are, obviously, advantages to RFCs and IETF. The primary disadvantage is speed. A private corporation innovating on its full stack can come up with a faster and more secure HTTP alternative for their use case in the time it takes the RFC process to get up in the morning and find its shoes. Google has a streamed cloud gaming service running in its web browser right now; how long would i…
There is another downside to IETF/RFC/public standard: it's hard to move forward. My favorite example: e-mail. SMTP and IMAP are old and have so many issues. On the SMTP side it is hard to identify authorized senders, which is a reason for spam, IMAP doesn't really work nice with mobile devices. On the other hand there are messengers like WhatsApp which solves many of those issues and allows adding features (for good…
But also, why isn't there a commonly accepted better email standard yet? It's not because the RFC process is slower - it may be, but it's not that slow. It's because none of the big providers are interested in this form of interoperability. It's plainly obvious when you look at the sorry state of affairs in IM.
We're really, really lucky to have the interop that we have, solely because early days of the Internet were more collaborative, and enough of it got early adoption and stuck around, because it was too hard to uproot. But the more we go forward down the present path, the more Internet is splintered into proprietary bubbles.
Re: To head off regulators, Google makes certain words taboo
#303Earlier quoted context omitted.
It depends on how stupid the regulators are - the one with the google name will win. Seriously people - domain names and awareness matter ans you can't just partition websites to regions with an international web.
We already know how incapable the regulators are. 20 years after they went after MS for their dominance in personal computer operating systems, productivity software and browsers, MS is still dominant in two and the third doesn’t matter to anyone except for Google. MS had the highest market cap in the US in 2000. As of today it is #3. The government had a monopoly suit against IBM in 1969 and finally withdrew it in 1…
Re: To head off regulators, Google makes certain words taboo
#304Earlier quoted context omitted.
> server (k8s), container (docker), RPC protocol (GRPC), user auth/ACLs, etc. ... At that point, you're rewriting the entire system You are not writing any of those systems, you're merely writing the glue code between your application and those systems, none of which is application specific. I explicitly made the point that cross-infra porting is not necessarily trivial, but it is also not cost prohibitive as the OP…
> you're merely writing the glue code between your application and those systems, none of which is application specific. Yes, but if you have to modify every interaction with an external API (you do), or even many interactions between internal APIs (you also do), you have to rewrite the application. Most of an application is moving data, if you have to change how you move data, you have to change the majority of the…
Re: To head off regulators, Google makes certain words taboo
#305Earlier quoted context omitted.
We are splitting hairs. Most of both what you say and I say is true and the point still stands. I never claimed cross platform porting is trivial, and that is not the point of this exercise. The OP believes in a secret sauce in Google's infrastructure and that it should justify its breaking up, which enables products like Google Reader not to be shut down. I claim cross-platform porting is not necessarily cost prohib…
> The OP believes in a secret sauce in Google's infrastructure and that it should justify its breaking up, which enables products like Google Reader not to be shut down. That's not at all what they said. Their actual point was that because Google uses highly custom infra, it is not easy for them to open source or spin off a singular thing. This is valid even if Google's internal infra is strictly worse than what is a…
Indeed it is, because Sod's, Parkinson's and Wirth's laws.
> This is insane and a sign that something is deeply wrong in Google. Splitting Google up, forcing this infrastructure to become open, etc would be much healthier than perpetually killing small products to protect Google's secret sauce.
Given such a massive rewrite will not be possible without bankrupting the company, and such an open source would just amount to going non-profit (they would essentially lose all trade secrets and profit-making advantages), forcing a public domain of intellectual property, replacing the top executives without severance and stripping of for-profit status will be way better economically, than splitting it.
Re: To head off regulators, Google makes certain words taboo
#306Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The OP believes in a secret sauce in Google's infrastructure and that it should justify its breaking up, which enables products like Google Reader not to be shut down. That's not at all what they said. Their actual point was that because Google uses highly custom infra, it is not easy for them to open source or spin off a singular thing. This is valid even if Google's internal infra is strictly worse than what is a…
> This is valid even if Google's internal infra is strictly worse than what is available openly. Indeed it is, because Sod's, Parkinson's and Wirth's laws. > This is insane and a sign that something is deeply wrong in Google. Splitting Google up, forcing this infrastructure to become open, etc would be much healthier than perpetually killing small products to protect Google's secret sauce. Given such a massive rewrit…
The US can't just make a company suddenly a non-proft. The current shareholders would have, in the case of Google, about a trillion reasons to complain.
Re: To head off regulators, Google makes certain words taboo
#307Earlier quoted context omitted.
> This is valid even if Google's internal infra is strictly worse than what is available openly. Indeed it is, because Sod's, Parkinson's and Wirth's laws. > This is insane and a sign that something is deeply wrong in Google. Splitting Google up, forcing this infrastructure to become open, etc would be much healthier than perpetually killing small products to protect Google's secret sauce. Given such a massive rewrit…
> and stripping of for-profit status will be way better than splitting it. The US can't just make a company suddenly a non-proft. The current shareholders would have, in the case of Google, about a trillion reasons to complain.
Re: To head off regulators, Google makes certain words taboo
#308Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sounds great. These days we only get the Google or the MS batches of results.
... which cover five nines of use case. A fragmented ecosystem would give us three to five sites to search that still cover only five nines of the use case, based on past experience.
Re: To head off regulators, Google makes certain words taboo
#309Earlier quoted context omitted.
We are splitting hairs. Most of both what you say and I say is true and the point still stands. I never claimed cross platform porting is trivial, and that is not the point of this exercise. The OP believes in a secret sauce in Google's infrastructure and that it should justify its breaking up, which enables products like Google Reader not to be shut down. I claim cross-platform porting is not necessarily cost prohib…
> The OP believes in a secret sauce in Google's infrastructure and that it should justify its breaking up, which enables products like Google Reader not to be shut down. That's not at all what they said. Their actual point was that because Google uses highly custom infra, it is not easy for them to open source or spin off a singular thing. This is valid even if Google's internal infra is strictly worse than what is a…
Completely foreign platform is moving the goalposts here. I said in my original response that everything Reader depended on is very likely to be available on GCP, and is very likely to be in a form that is very similar to its internal versions.
Besides, the giant leap the OP and you make is that cost prohibition is the reason these spin-offs don't occur. I've been arguing not only the cost is not as high as you make, it is also unlikely to be the reason for us not seeing spin-offs. To invert your premise, if cost of giving the keys of any killed Google product to someone else was less than the money they could get, would they really transact away all of those products? I voted a strong no since my first reply to OP.
> the internal systems are usually more flexible than the external ones (they have to be, they're what the external systems run on top of)
Once your internal infrastructure is serving thousands of different engineering teams, there is only so much flexibility you can offer. As I stated, that accommodation game becomes combinatorially explosive. Which means internal infrastructure already has to be as general purpose as the variety of products a company has, which for these companies is pretty large. Which is why the internal and external versions of could offerings don't diverge but converge too, their infrastructure is general purpose enough.
> it just proves the point that the infra isn't the same today, and that as of this moment such a migration would reasonably be cost prohibitive.
I explicitly stated multiple times that I am not claiming 100% API/service parity, so you are fighting a strawman here. Not being identical, while being are sufficiently convergent, doesn't prove cost prohibition at all.
> Yes, you claim this, and you were and continue to be incorrect. > But these aren't opinions. You're just factually, demonstrably wrong.
I don't hear any demonstrations or facts, only your willful assertion that "it is so". Which is fine in a pseudonymous forum, because as I mentioned we don't need to spill our credentials to just win an argument, but also like I said, don't ask people to ascribe any more authority to it than mere opinion.
Re: To head off regulators, Google makes certain words taboo
#310Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The OP believes in a secret sauce in Google's infrastructure and that it should justify its breaking up, which enables products like Google Reader not to be shut down. That's not at all what they said. Their actual point was that because Google uses highly custom infra, it is not easy for them to open source or spin off a singular thing. This is valid even if Google's internal infra is strictly worse than what is a…
> It is cost prohibitive to spin off anything because it has to be ported to a completely foreign platform. Completely foreign platform is moving the goalposts here. I said in my original response that everything Reader depended on is very likely to be available on GCP, and is very likely to be in a form that is very similar to its internal versions. Besides, the giant leap the OP and you make is that cost prohibitio…
No it's not, because you are consistently overestimating how similar the internal and public platforms are. I don't know how I can make this any more clear. Your estimation is incorrect. You are misinformed.
> everything Reader depended on is very likely to be available on GCP
This is, probably, approximately true.
> is very likely to be in a form that is very similar to its internal versions.
This is demonstrably wrong, and I and others have already provided examples, which you've ignored.
> I said in my original response that everything Reader depended on is very likely to be available on GCP, and is very likely to be in a form that is very similar to its internal versions.
Moving from stubby to GRPC is a lot of effort. Moving from Google's internal user ACLing to OAuth or whatever is a lot of effort. Switching the APIs used for Google's internal monitoring infra with the ones that are used by GCP is a lot of effort. Removing dependencies on borg particulars is a lot of effort.
Doing all of those things is a lot of a lot of effort and reasonably cost prohibitive. And that's ignoring a lot of other sources of "a lot of effort".
> Once your internal infrastructure is serving thousands of different engineering teams, there is only so much flexibility you can offer.
You have this backwards. It is precisely because the internal infra supports thousands of engineering teams doing complex things, up to and including hosting the external infra, that it must be significantly more flexible.
Note however that this is irrelevant to the broader point, which is that even if they're exactly the same flexible, they're not the same, and as a result, you have to rewrite every place where you interact with an external system, which means essentially rewriting the entire application.
> Which means internal infrastructure already has to be as general purpose as the variety of products a company has, which for these companies is pretty large.
Yes, which is more flexible than the external infrastructure. Put simply, the internal infrastructure is what the external infrastructure runs on. This may mean that sometimes you can run things on the external infra, but when you can't, the internal infra is strictly more powerful, since it hosts the external infra.
> I explicitly stated multiple times that I am not claiming 100% API/service parity
Nor did I say anything about 100% parity. I said, and continue to say cost prohibitive. To rephrase, since you misunderstood: if they need to better align them, that means that there are large enough differences that porting (or perhaps just interoperation) is cost prohibitive, and so they need to change how the systems work to make it easier to move between them.