Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#461

Post by filoeleven » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 11:41 PM UTC

robk wrote: post #410

amelius wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many bugs are on your car's windshield/grille, versus 20 years ago?

How much more aerodynamic is your car now versus then?

I drove a Scion xB for 13 years which had all the sleek aerodynamics of a toaster. When I got it in 2005 after driving a sedan for years, I IMMEDIATELY noticed how much more buggy the windshield got during the summer. It was one of the few things I disliked about that ugly, lovely little Lego brick.

By 2015, the bugs has drastically diminished enough for me to remark upon it before coming across any studies. The confounding factor here though is that the county I was in had a lot of development in it over that time. My routes stayed mostly the same (meaning both ‘where I drove’ and ‘how many buildings were along them’) but I can’t discount the expansion of the surrounding sprawl as a big factor.

Even after I moved to a neighboring more-rural county though, with a longer commute to the same workplace, I did not really see an increase.

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#462

Post by User23 » Sat, Aug 08, 2020, 2:24 AM UTC

jungletime wrote: post #403

User23 wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No shortage of lightning bugs here either. The only thing killing them is the spiders.

You should definitely film that. I bet there are thousands of people that would watch a "firefly vs spider" death match on youtube.

So far I've only discovered the aftermath, drained husks hanging in a web. If I can catch a spider in the act though that would be great and I'd definitely film it.

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#463

Post by jtjbdhsjjdnd » Sat, Aug 08, 2020, 5:48 AM UTC

42droids wrote: post #12

German side streets are fairly dark already. This change will affect ‘large’ polluters, eg. floodlights in car parks, outside store areas, brightly lit buildings, etc. It is a very welcomed change. In our neighbourhood ppl knowingly plant flowers and leave grass grow ‘wild’ to support insects.

Even sometimes insanely dark. About five years ago I went to see Sanssouci in the evening in winter. It was so dark that I couldn't even see my hand, let alone the palace.

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#464

Post by tpmx » Sat, Aug 08, 2020, 10:48 AM UTC

qayxc wrote: post #447

tpmx wrote: post #323

Also Germany: Shuts down nuclear plants and lights up more coal plants.

More coal plants is incorrect and the shutdown of the nuclear power plants was planned anyway. Since the mid 1980s no less... Basically most of the plants that were shut down simply didn't get their runtime extended again and would've been shut down in a few years anyway. And the utility companies owning them get billions in compensation and don't have o pay for waste disposal of all the irradiated parts either... Fa…

https://www.powermag.com/germany-brings-last-new-coal-plant-...

> What is expected to be the last new coal plant to come online in Germany entered commercial operation on May 30, more than a decade after it was first planned.

> The 1,100-MW Datteln 4 power plant, owned by Uniper and located in Datteln in the North Rhine-Westphalia region, opened despite the German government’s stated plan to end coal-fired power generation in the country.

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#465

Post by perlgeek » Sat, Aug 08, 2020, 11:02 AM UTC

theobeers wrote: post #75

rspoerri wrote: post #15

Do you remember the time when you had to clean your windshield after driving into holidays?

I just finished a two-week road trip from Berlin to the Black Forest and back (with other stops in both directions). The windshield was gunked up by the end—more than I expected, but nothing like what I remember from my childhood.

Same here. About two years ago we traveled through Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and had quite some insect gunk on the wind shields. When I told my parents, they said "we used to have that after an hour of driving" (and presumably they went slower than we do today, not having access to fast cars in their youths).

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#466

Post by dependenttypes » Sat, Aug 08, 2020, 11:05 AM UTC

danparsonson wrote: post #406

auganov wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are plenty of other, more specific ways to do that, no? The problem with light traps is they are indiscriminate. Well you do usually want to kill as many as possible. Bringing up mosquitoes because it's one of the most common. I cannot go out and sit down in my garden if I have insects flying around. Unless they keep an appropriate distance as to not be intimidating. > Not to mention that if you apply some re…

> Well you do usually want to kill as many as possible. Indiscriminate across species - those traps kill everything, not just mosquitoes. I'm sorry that you find insects intimidating but killing everything is not the answer to that and in the long run, unless you don't care about having food, ultimately counterproductive. > If you mean the skin applied kind it's totally unsatisfactory. Why? I've spent a lot of time i…

> The overarching issue is that we need to coexist with our many-legged brethren

Do we though? What is the point of having them in the cities specifically?

Since you seem to know about that, which bugs should one avoid killing?

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#467

Post by Jweb_Guru » Sat, Aug 08, 2020, 11:06 AM UTC

sizzle wrote: post #388

Wonder if this will increase crime rates... Thoughts?

Most german towns have virtually no crime to begin with and I doubt this will change because lights are dimmer.

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#468

Post by hh3k0 » Sat, Aug 08, 2020, 12:24 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #385

Insects are dead because we manufacturer billions of liters of insect-killing liquid to spray fields to feed billions of humans. Starvation levels have dramatically declined over the last century. Now, we need to fix the problem we induced in our goal to feed the world. The only known solution is vertical farming.

> Insects are dead because we manufacturer billions of liters of insect-killing liquid to spray fields to feed billions of humans.

That surely plays a role, too. Light pollution of street lights in Germany, however, kills an estimated 1 billion insects _per night_.

And then there's cars on the Autobahn, of course. They kill an estimated 100 billion insects per German summer.

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#469

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew » Sat, Aug 08, 2020, 12:59 PM UTC

TACIXAT wrote: post #453

mrpopo wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We made LED lighting white because we wanted it. We can make yellow LED lighting as well. This should be suggested to city councils, if changing the wavelength would be beneficial to insects with no downsides.

I'd be so stoked for red street lights. They don't mess up your vision at night.

Belgium uses yellow light. And, unlike its neighbors, it has lights all along its interstates. Quite eerie to see when you’re not used to it.

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#470

Post by auganov » Sat, Aug 08, 2020, 2:12 PM UTC

danparsonson wrote: post #406

auganov wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are plenty of other, more specific ways to do that, no? The problem with light traps is they are indiscriminate. Well you do usually want to kill as many as possible. Bringing up mosquitoes because it's one of the most common. I cannot go out and sit down in my garden if I have insects flying around. Unless they keep an appropriate distance as to not be intimidating. > Not to mention that if you apply some re…

> Well you do usually want to kill as many as possible. Indiscriminate across species - those traps kill everything, not just mosquitoes. I'm sorry that you find insects intimidating but killing everything is not the answer to that and in the long run, unless you don't care about having food, ultimately counterproductive. > If you mean the skin applied kind it's totally unsatisfactory. Why? I've spent a lot of time i…

I have an extremely hard time believing average citizens are having such a huge effect. This German law seems to have been spurred by some study saying that over the last few decades the flying insect population has dropped by a big percentage in Germany. Yet cannot find any information as to any adverse effect it had on anything. Nor is it obvious what exactly caused this drop.

The logic here seems to be "insect populations are dropping so let's forbid some things that are killing insects".

> Why? I've spent a lot of time in tropical countries and found it very effective. Even just a running fan keeps most mozzies away as they aren't generally strong fliers.

They'll still fly around you. Sure when traveling somewhere that's the only solution.

Chemical diffusers work best for me. I rarely go outside, just deploy it as needed and it takes care of the problem pretty fast.

But say someone has a restaurant/whatever with an outside area. In addition to periodic chemical treatments, you might want to have a bunch of light traps in your arsenal.

And the article does talk about limiting use of insecticides too but isn't too clear on that.