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Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

nytimes.com

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Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#131

Post by djaque »

spaetzleesser wrote: post #3

I really hate that in typical US manner this issue gets pushed to the extreme so in the end a reasonable discussion can’t be had but it’s only a fight with everybody digging in and not listening to each other. Abolishing the police was always nonsense but there are plenty of areas where police is overused and too aggressive. In my view there shouldn’t be police in schools or hospitals. The drug war causes a lot of un…

> I really hate that in typical US manner this issue gets pushed to the extreme so in the end a reasonable discussion can’t be had

That's kind of the intention. It's easy to argue against "Abolish the police! Anarchy for everyone!". Not so much against "maybe we shouldn't send people with guns drawn to respond to unarmed individuals going through a mental health crisis" [1].

None of the real proposals for policing reform that have come out the protests are calling to get rid of the police. Pretending that they want that is a political fearmongering tactic.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Charles_Kinsey

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#132

Post by CapricornNoble »

xab31 wrote: post #109
dorian-graph wrote: post #6

> “Seattle’s unprecedented decision to abandon and close off an entire city neighborhood, leaving it unchecked by the police, unserved by fire and emergency health services, and inaccessible to the public” Is this what people advocating for abolish the police are advocating for? Removal of health services? Isn't it literally the opposite, to have more and more varied health (and social) services, that people are advo…

> I'd call this article a straw-man argument, but there are those on the extreme end of the scale, apparently. I too found it hard to believe that such people exist, but my own wife said she agrees with the statement "I believe police cause overall more harm than good in the USA, and it would be better to have no police at all than policing in its current form." And yes, she believes that all police, except for inves…

>>>And yes, she believes that all police, except for investigating detectives, could be replaced by social workers and the like. Many of her friends believe similarly. So it isn't a straw man, these people really exist.

Show them content like this and ask them how a "social worker" is supposed to handle it (graphic warning?): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRF4yOIY00I

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#133

Post by djaque »

Threeve303 wrote: post #19

Abolishing the police combined with the protests (or riots) and the move against the NRA creates a very uncomfortable environment for probably half of the United States. All in an election year no less. Does no one remember 2000,2004 and 2016? Perhaps the DNC could write a book called “How to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory”

That's the point... Nobody is seriously considering getting rid of the police. Calling it that is a fearmongering technique from the political right.

Biden doesn't even support the defund the police movement [1] which is the real goal of most of these protests. If you look beyond the media's reality distortion bubble, the defund the police movement is about diversifying how we respond to crises, not getting rid of the police as some claim.

[1] https://www.factcheck.org/2020/07/trumps-false-recurring-cla...

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#134

Post by djaque »

jkingsbery wrote: post #13

"Aren't so sure" from reading the article seems like an understatement. Many of the people featured in this article are suing the city for not doing it's responsibility. I get that police treatment is often inequitable, but I think we've had some experiments this summer showing that some of the radical changes being proposed have their own problems.

What experiments? None of the proposals for policing reform have been implemented. The only thing we've seen are the police refusing to respond to calls and do their job in a political move. Nobody asked for that and none of the serious reform proposals consider anything like that.

It's possible to have a world where the police do their job and are accountable when they commit horrible acts as we've seen over the past few months. Talking about the subject as if we can either have the police and look the other way at their abuse, or get rid of them completely is a terrible false dichotomy.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#135

Post by CapricornNoble »

adjkant wrote: post #58

Remember back when people had such issue with the language and phrasing of "Black Lives Matter" until people (over 50%, according to recent polls) finally came around after George Floyd? "Abolish the police" is going to be the same scenario in time. Please, do your research on what abolition actually looks like. This article does not describe abolition, it describes a PR tactic the Seattle PD decided to pull as punis…

>>>This is a classic white liberal issue of "I support the ideas but not the way to them" that has been around for centuries.

"The white liberal is the worst enemy to America, and the worst enemy to the black man....The white liberal aren’t white people who are for independence, who are moral and ethical in their thinking. They are just a faction of white people that are jockeying for power. The same as the white conservative is a faction of white people that are jockeying for power. They are fighting each other for power and prestige, and the one that is the football in the game is the Negro..." - Malcom X

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/8869214-the-white-liberal-i...

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#136

Post by djaque »

collyw wrote: post #2

Was anyone surprised by this? Defund / Abolish the police sound like the stupidest ideas ever.

You're falling for a strawman.

Spend some time looking at the nuanced proposals for policing reform that go by the name "defund the police" and I am guessing that you agree with them a lot more than you think you do.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#137

Post by adjkant »

CapricornNoble wrote: post #135
adjkant wrote: post #58

Remember back when people had such issue with the language and phrasing of "Black Lives Matter" until people (over 50%, according to recent polls) finally came around after George Floyd? "Abolish the police" is going to be the same scenario in time. Please, do your research on what abolition actually looks like. This article does not describe abolition, it describes a PR tactic the Seattle PD decided to pull as punis…

>>>This is a classic white liberal issue of "I support the ideas but not the way to them" that has been around for centuries. "The white liberal is the worst enemy to America, and the worst enemy to the black man....The white liberal aren’t white people who are for independence, who are moral and ethical in their thinking. They are just a faction of white people that are jockeying for power. The same as the white con…

Was looking for this when I was typing that post up! Should have known it would be Malcom X. There's another great quote along the lines of "those concerned with how something is said than what is said" that I can't seem to remember the source on either that is very relevant here too.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#139

Post by moomin »

bobbygoodlatte wrote: post #125
moomin wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the thing you're missing here is that the distortion (see the use of the word abolish here, the proposal is defunding) is completely deliberate. This divide didn't happen by accident, it's the product of decades of deliberate political choices.

Social media algorithms amplify the most engaging content, and extreme versions of political statements are very engaging. I don't think it takes deliberate messaging tactics by one side or another for our current political climate to emerge.

The strategy has been in place since the 1960s. Read up on the history of anti-abortion in the US.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#140

Post by kombucha111 »

syshum wrote: post #75
happytoexplain wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should be aware that I've talked to liberals in rural areas who feel physically threatened by far-right rhetoric. I.e. the "the only good democrat is a dead democrat" video, conservatives guarding voting locations with guns, the president encouraging both these examples, etc. A couple of them have taken up gun ownership specifically because of this fear . I absolutely sympathize with both sides, but being "very u…

I have never once encountered "far-right rhetoric. I.e. the only good democrat is a dead democrat", sounds more like authoritarian propaganda to me

I absolutely have. It's real.
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