A Call to All UI Designers: Do Not Play Skype’s Game • Hacker News Board

Re: A Call to All UI Designers: Do Not Play Skype’s Game

#51

Post by kaishin » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 6:31 PM UTC

olalonde wrote: post #37

radley wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a very experienced designer. This has nothing to do with competition (seriously, if a contest can unravel me then I'm not really a professional). The rejection of contests has to do with wasting time on wishful thinking without even the minimum form of reward: constructive feedback. Our advice is based on actual experience. What's yours?

This has nothing to do with competition? That's not what I get from this sentence: keep in mind that you are *betraying the design community*, and that *might harm you as designer* in the long run. That actually sounds like a threat to me.

I didn't meant to threaten anyone in my article. It's just a way to draw attention to the seriousness of the matter. As a matter of fact I couldn't care less if there are any people who enter the contest. They are amateurs and and they will stay so until they take their profession more seriously.

Re: A Call to All UI Designers: Do Not Play Skype’s Game

#52

Post by kaishin » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 6:40 PM UTC

bonch wrote: post #29

"Such Design competitions are a disguised form of crowdsourcing, and are extremely insulting to the design profession." Oh, come off it. Too many designers become smug asses with an unwarranted sense of importance. Competitions like this are opportunities for those just starting to get their name out in the world. You're not going to be put out on the street because Skype held a public UI contest rather than hiring y…

I do not run a design firm. I am just a no-name freelance designer who loves his job. If you think that I wrote the article because I am concerned about paying my bills, then you completely missed the point.

It's sad to live in an era where someone who loves what he is doing for a living is called a "smug ass with an unwarranted sense of importance" ...

Re: A Call to All UI Designers: Do Not Play Skype’s Game

#53

Post by pixelbath » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 6:58 PM UTC

kaishin wrote: post #51

olalonde wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has nothing to do with competition? That's not what I get from this sentence: keep in mind that you are *betraying the design community*, and that *might harm you as designer* in the long run. That actually sounds like a threat to me.

I didn't meant to threaten anyone in my article. It's just a way to draw attention to the seriousness of the matter. As a matter of fact I couldn't care less if there are any people who enter the contest. They are amateurs and and they will stay so until they take their profession more seriously.

You don't care at all if anyone enters the contest, yet felt the need to write this incendiary piece that calls on all designers (which you now deride as "amateur") not to enter this contest? You then further go on to suggest that an entrant's credibility/integrity would be compromised by doing so.

So, which is it?

Re: A Call to All UI Designers: Do Not Play Skype’s Game

#54

Post by tptacek » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 6:59 PM UTC

raganwald wrote: post #40

tptacek wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But "not a product, also a process" is also a tactic used by some designers to justify rustproofing, like long up-front wireframing sessions or market studies. It's the customer's decision how much process they want, not the designer's. I think probably every professional service field has this problem; there's a core transactional gig that most clients want and there's a series of services that consultants want to u…

Design is a process. It is not the customer's decision how much process they want, rather it is the customer's decision how much process they want to do themselves and how much they want to do in conjunction with a designer. Likewise the designer gets to choose how much of the process they wish to be involved in. If the customer wants to do almost all of the work and simply bring in a designer to apply chrome, some d…

Yup. The obvious subtext here is, I think the business value of the total design package is not that much better than the business value of transaction one-off design gigs.

Re: A Call to All UI Designers: Do Not Play Skype’s Game

#55

Post by raganwald » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 7:02 PM UTC

joe_the_user wrote: post #49

raganwald wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politicians manipulate people's behaviour by appealing to their perceived best interest. So do companies marketing products. So do the Society of Engineers and the College of Physicians. Come to think of it, so do unions. Is there any "reasonableness" to their position? You can decide for yourself. If you don't like the expression "social engineering," I'm perfectly happy with "Engineers manipulate public behaviour t…

"Social engineering" and "manipulation" are terms for influence with a negative connotation. So I don't think you are entirely avoiding the question whether this influencing is valid. Moreover, you are making the presupposition that the end-goal is higher pay. That might be one goal but its quite possible engineers actually believe that regulation serves the public good. We could discuss this too but "meta-conversati…

I appreciate what you are trying to say, but one part of what you are saying jars. You are saying that phrases like "manipulate" have a negative connotation, and you also say that this is linked to whether the influence is "valid."

I don't know that the two are coupled in this manner. If I observe a politician making an election promise, is it only "manipulation" if he has no intention of attempting to fulfil his promise? What if he promises something and follows through with it? Is it manipulation if he personally doesn't care about the issue but is only doing it to get elected? What if he cares about some other issue, but promotes this issue to get elected so he can pursue another agenda he believes in?

I think the "validity" of influence is a very murky point to debate. There's what a politician believes, what a politician believes you believe, what they believe you might believe if told they believe it... Ultimately I find it easier to use the word "manipulate" to describe what happens when one person attempts to influence the behaviour of another for their own ends, whether I agree or disagree with those ends.

Getting away from politicians and back to regulated professions, Chiropractors and Doctors are both regulated professions. They seem to hate each other's practices. I believe each is sincere in arguing against the other, and I have a personal belief about the efficacy of one vs. the other, but I would also describe them both as attempting to manipulate public opinion about the other's profession.

I wouldn't say that one is manipulative and the other isn't purely because of my belief that one is right and that the other is wrong.

Re: A Call to All UI Designers: Do Not Play Skype’s Game

#56

Post by kaishin » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 7:05 PM UTC

Hi all,

I have spent almost one hour reading all of your comments and replied to as many as I can. Needless to say, I don't expect everyone to agree with me. Actually, I was expecting quite the opposite, if the strong tone of the article is anything to go by.

Again, let me reiterate that I am NOT against design contests per se. I am against companies who take design lightly and try to patch stuff when things go astray. Do any of you think that changing the visual style of the chat pane will solve the several issues of the new UI?

Folks, this is a program used by millions of people, including computer un-savvy people who are having serious problems with the new UI. Forget logos, the problems here are functional first and foremost, and it is not a design contest that will solve them.

For those of you saying that this is a chance for young designers to get their name out in the world, allow me to tell you that there are hundreds of other ways to do that. Free or open source projects that need UI designers are not hard to come by.

Also, I am under 25, and by no means an old timer who is trying to spoil the party.

Cheers,

Re: A Call to All UI Designers: Do Not Play Skype’s Game

#57

Post by kaishin » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 7:09 PM UTC

pixelbath wrote: post #47

As a designer, these pieces come off to me as whiny. I have a difficult time picturing why a designer would sit there angry at a company for crowdsourcing a design. Some 14-year-old designer is not cheapening the work we do by submitting logos for free to a bunch of companies hoping to get exposure. Out-of-work designers are not taking all the other freelance jobs because they decided to do some blog layouts at $50 a…

If you, as a designer, truly feel the work you are doing is better than a design competition, then don't submit your work to a design competition. If you're really that good, freelancers offering services for cheap, near-free, or even free shouldn't bother you at all << This is exactly why I wrote the article. You guys are talking money, I am talking ethics.

Re: A Call to All UI Designers: Do Not Play Skype’s Game

#58

Post by ThomPete » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 7:11 PM UTC

raganwald wrote: post #43

ThomPete wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They guys that did Skype was 8020studio.com probably on of the best design agencies in the world if you ask me.

And I hope this actually reinforces the point I made. If it looks to me like this did not take place, it is because I obviously don't understand the forces and constraints upon the solution. Perhaps I don't fully understand the problem they are trying to solve. If they did an excellent job, then they knew something that is not obvious from looking at the design competition, which is why I suggest that being involved…

Well let me give you a pointer on what and for who they are solving problems.

I think the numbers are something along the lines of this:

90% of users on Skype don't have much more than 5 contacts in their contact list.

95% of all messages are. "Can I call you?"

Re: A Call to All UI Designers: Do Not Play Skype’s Game

#59

Post by radley » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 7:16 PM UTC

olalonde wrote: post #37

radley wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a very experienced designer. This has nothing to do with competition (seriously, if a contest can unravel me then I'm not really a professional). The rejection of contests has to do with wasting time on wishful thinking without even the minimum form of reward: constructive feedback. Our advice is based on actual experience. What's yours?

This has nothing to do with competition? That's not what I get from this sentence: keep in mind that you are *betraying the design community*, and that *might harm you as designer* in the long run. That actually sounds like a threat to me.

FWIW, telling noob designers not to enter design contests is equivalent to telling noob programmers to comment their code. It's 101 stuff. I could go into what parts of his post are off-target (like what you point out) but the fundamentals remain the same.

Re: A Call to All UI Designers: Do Not Play Skype’s Game

#60

Post by famousactress » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 7:16 PM UTC

Meh. I think asking (especially young) designers to consider the value of their work before giving it away is a reasonable thing.. but to try to pseudo-unionize to prevent this from happening is silly.

This happens to lots of markets, with similar complaints. It's certainly happened in photography, and the result is painful.. mostly for craftsmen in the middle of the talent & pay scale, who's overhead and value was frankly inflated by a rather narrow market channel and burden-to-entry.

Both disappeared, and the market corrected. Is it sad? Sure. It's a bummer to know that in some parts of the market hard-working people were replaced by flickr searches or microstock, but there's something beautiful about it also. Either way, it's inertia. It's what happens, and what's always happened.

I think the natural result can be a very positive one for the very talented. There's a sharp talent & value contrast this kind of shift causes. People in the middle need to move up or down and take advantage of the changes.

Adapt or die.