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US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

asia.nikkei.com

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Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#431

Post by pishpash »

ejanus wrote: post #359
puranjay wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's stopping Volkswagen from lobbying Germany to ban Teslas because all the cameras in it pose a "national security risk"? This is, by all account, a shortsighted move

But if Chinese social media firms are freely operating in the USA why can't the likes of FB and Twitter be allowed same free access in their market. Let's not see this as harming anybody but this is one of the ways to force China to open up and allow foreign businesses(social media) to spread in their domain. Imagine being forced to open a WeChat account just to chat with someone in China. If this kind of business mo…

And how does following suit not in fact ratify the business model because now banning on security grounds is legitimate? (Note that nowhere is the justification or condition stated to be one of reciprocal market access.) Isn't it interesting that there are laws on the books and authority vested in a single man to do this already? If this isn't struck down by the courts, then it just shows to the world, not for the first time, that America's vaunted values are a pretty thin veneer, conveniently discarded when it suits.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#432

Post by [deleted] »

puranjay wrote: post #426
rubber_duck wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBH I can see how Tesla could be labelled that, and if it was a Chinese company I'd suspect it would eventually, the spying potential from all those streaming cameras and AI without any insight or oversight of the process. Germany is in bed with the US, especially the secret service.

Not sure how long Germany, or Europe for that matter, remains in bed with US. The current administration is isolationist and if the future ones adopt the same policies, we might see a decoupling of Europe and USA. Won't happen overnight but if I were a gambling man, I would wager on it. I don't think after all this we can go back to the old world order.

[deleted]

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#433

Post by tobias3 »

ejanus wrote: post #359
puranjay wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's stopping Volkswagen from lobbying Germany to ban Teslas because all the cameras in it pose a "national security risk"? This is, by all account, a shortsighted move

But if Chinese social media firms are freely operating in the USA why can't the likes of FB and Twitter be allowed same free access in their market. Let's not see this as harming anybody but this is one of the ways to force China to open up and allow foreign businesses(social media) to spread in their domain. Imagine being forced to open a WeChat account just to chat with someone in China. If this kind of business mo…

China does it, so it is okay for us to do it is just a very weak defense of this behaviour for us looking at this from outside of China and the US.

The US stood for free markets, democracy and human rights and (at least) pretended to make international decisions based on those values. Now the fig leaf is gone and it is clear that those are mostly used to make transactions to US benefit even if it comes at the cost to others.

If you value something like free markets, you stand by it even if it comes at a cost in the near future. If opaque TikTok recommendation engines are a problem, maybe regulate them in a way that solves the problem in general? That would hurt Youtube, Facebook and co. but it also would make the EU more comfortable in the negotiation for the Privacy Shield successor.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#434

Post by sbmthakur »

keiferski wrote: post #116
toomuchtodo wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More importantly, China has acted unilaterally in the past to inflict pain on western companies in preference of domestic firms. What’s new is the US doing it back. Tesla was one of the first US companies to operate with the level of autonomy they have in China. Perhaps there is some retribution from the CCP, but such is the consequence of doing business with a totalitarian state.

Why is this downvoted? It’s true. Everything the US is doing, China has been doing for decades one thousand fold. Whether that’s right or wrong is a different issue.

It's rather surprising that US policies are blamed for the current standoff instead of China's Great Firewall, which has been getting stronger by each year due to lack of a stronger opposition.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#435

Post by EdTsft »

bananaface wrote: post #358
chillacy wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This plays right into China's narrative. Now the arrest of Meng Wanzhou (Huawei CTO) starts to look a bit less principled and a bit more like a piece of realpolitik. I think it's definitely justified in the sense that it's understandable to strike back, but it's hard to take a moral high ground now.

The arrest of Meng Wanzhou was never meant to seem legitimate imo, the point was power projection. "Don't fuck with us." I don't think the moral high ground means much in geopolitics. Power is way more important. "Better not curtail us, it'll make you seem mean..." This is the US we're talking about, known around the world for turning half the middle east into a desert. That's really not their primary concern.

That sounds like an excellent way for the US to torpedo their relationship with Canada, as if the trade war and COVID response isn't doing enough already. Canada's stance on the arrest is based on its legitimacy and the impartiality of the judiciary. The public will be outraged if it comes out that we've had to suffer China's wrath for a political stunt by the US.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#436

Post by rubber_duck »

puranjay wrote: post #426
rubber_duck wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBH I can see how Tesla could be labelled that, and if it was a Chinese company I'd suspect it would eventually, the spying potential from all those streaming cameras and AI without any insight or oversight of the process. Germany is in bed with the US, especially the secret service.

Not sure how long Germany, or Europe for that matter, remains in bed with US. The current administration is isolationist and if the future ones adopt the same policies, we might see a decoupling of Europe and USA. Won't happen overnight but if I were a gambling man, I would wager on it. I don't think after all this we can go back to the old world order.

I think a big part in this story will be Brexit and how much UK turns to US for trade partnership and how much friction that causes over EU industry interest groups.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#437

Post by stale2002 »

learnstats2 wrote: post #399
hintymad wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this just reciprocity? China banned a long list of media companies: FB, Google, YouTube, Twitter, Netflix, and every traditional media. Now the US is banning two apps made in China.

It feels unequal after this was called censorship and anti-democratic, being used as a basis for propaganda against China, for years?

Thats not unequal. They did it to us, so we are doing it to them. This is how trade relations have worked since forever.

It is not complicated. If another country engages in negative trade actions to us, it seems reasonable to do similar trade sanctions against them, so that we are treating them similarly to how they are treating us.

This is the basis of most international trade agreements and relations.

If a country puts a tariff on you, then it is almost certain that a tariff will be put on them as well.

If you don't respond, then you are letting people take advantage of you, and it encourages them to continue to do it in the future.

This is basic trade relations, and game theory 101. This is simple stuff. This is how international relations works on numerous different fronts.

It is simple accepted, basic, and uncontroversial, that, in international relations, when a country does a bad thing to you, then there is often a response to that bad thing, and you don't just let them get away with it.

This is uncontroversial to anyone who knows anything about international relations.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#438

Post by Lambdanaut »

This is how war festers. You lose the common communication mediums. It becomes easier and easier to see the other guy as BarBar-speaking barbarians.

Fuck the fuckers that would rather punch back than uphold their own integrity.

You can't call the other team an asshole for cheating, and then go right ahead and cheat in the exact same way. It makes you even worse than they ever were, because you ever presumed you were better.

How absolutely sad.

We deserve to choke on the toxic fruits these seeds may bear.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#439

Post by jatins »

tobias3 wrote: post #433
ejanus wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if Chinese social media firms are freely operating in the USA why can't the likes of FB and Twitter be allowed same free access in their market. Let's not see this as harming anybody but this is one of the ways to force China to open up and allow foreign businesses(social media) to spread in their domain. Imagine being forced to open a WeChat account just to chat with someone in China. If this kind of business mo…

China does it, so it is okay for us to do it is just a very weak defense of this behaviour for us looking at this from outside of China and the US. The US stood for free markets, democracy and human rights and (at least) pretended to make international decisions based on those values. Now the fig leaf is gone and it is clear that those are mostly used to make transactions to US benefit even if it comes at the cost to…

US banning Chineese apps is an anti-China move and not an anti-free market move.

An anti free market move would be protecting their own companies against all global competition, irrespective of country.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#440

Post by pjc50 »

tonfa wrote: post #404
pjc50 wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the 36,000 US troops in Germany? EU countries don't get to have "national security" that conflicts with the US to more than a trivial extent, like the Airbus/Boeing conflict. That's been a tradeoff that was accepted since the end of WW2. The US now complains about Europe not having strong militaries, having forgotten that for decades it was policy to discourage Europe from having strong militaries in case that…

> Maybe the 36,000 US troops in Germany? Do german people really care about those? (besides the obvious economic benefits in the towns where those troops are stationed due to local spending) I always thought it benefited the US more than germany (easier access to eastern europe and middle east).

My point was that any consideration of the US as a "national security threat" to Germany should take into account the physical national security and ask what national security actually means when there are troops from the other country stationed in yours (along with their associated CIA listening posts etc). It makes it very hard to suddenly treat the US as a hostile power. "The cars have to go but the troops can stay" is obviously nonsense.
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