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Making Advanced GUI Applications with Godot

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Re: Making Advanced GUI Applications with Godot

#251

Post by shripadk »

gridlockd wrote: post #222
shripadk wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to hire a blind person to be compliant with regulations. What if you are building consumer facing products? Can you pick who your consumer will be? What stops a blind person from using your product? And what if the user is suffering from another physical disability which doesn't let the user operate a keyboard/mouse? What if the employee were a medically fit person but met with an unfortunate accident…

> What if... What if tomorrow some change of parameters makes my business impossible? I'll go out of business. That's always an option. Dealing with every possible risk ahead of time generally isn't an option. > "Jason Camacho, a blind resident of Brooklyn, N.Y., is suing 50 colleges over the accessibility of their websites. This is referring to public websites, which arguably are covered by the ADA. I'm looking more…

> What if tomorrow some change of parameters makes my business impossible? I'll go out of business. That's always an option.

Yes and no one can sue you for going out of business. But you can be sued for violating a law while your business is in operation.

> Dealing with every possible risk ahead of time generally isn't an option.

No you need not if you use standard software development tools that do it for you. You would need to worry about it if you plan to implement everything on your own.

> If this was a real problem for software in general, why is there no cottage industry of shady lawyers using people with disabilities to sue software vendors in particular? There's obviously lots of software that is not accessible, or not accessible enough.

When there is a clear law that states that you have to make your software accessible you have no choice but to implement accessibility. For personal use you need not. For open source projects, the implementation rests on the shoulders of those using the project for end-user facing software. You can get away with it for a while, just like you can get away with using pirated software. But then law will catch up anyways. Just because there is no precedent set doesn't mean that it is legally allowed. Would you want to be the first test case? A scapegoat? I bet not!

As far as why there are no cottage industry of shady lawyers: Maybe those shady lawyers have bigger fish to catch. Maybe there isn't much awareness about it in the legal circles. Could be variety of reasons why.

Re: Making Advanced GUI Applications with Godot

#252

Post by gridlockd »

shripadk wrote: post #251
gridlockd wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What if... What if tomorrow some change of parameters makes my business impossible? I'll go out of business. That's always an option. Dealing with every possible risk ahead of time generally isn't an option. > "Jason Camacho, a blind resident of Brooklyn, N.Y., is suing 50 colleges over the accessibility of their websites. This is referring to public websites, which arguably are covered by the ADA. I'm looking more…

> What if tomorrow some change of parameters makes my business impossible? I'll go out of business. That's always an option. Yes and no one can sue you for going out of business. But you can be sued for violating a law while your business is in operation. > Dealing with every possible risk ahead of time generally isn't an option. No you need not if you use standard software development tools that do it for you. You w…

> No you need not if you use standard software development tools that do it for you.

The belief that you just need to use "standard toolkits" and accessibility "just works" is wrong.

> When there is a clear law that states that you have to make your software accessible you have no choice but to implement accessibility.

There is no law that mandates implementing accessibility for all commercial software.

> As far as why there are no cottage industry of shady lawyers: Maybe those shady lawyers have bigger fish to catch. Maybe there isn't much awareness about it in the legal circles. Could be variety of reasons why.

...or maybe the law doesn't actually say what you think it says.

Re: Making Advanced GUI Applications with Godot

#254

Post by neop1x »

miki123211 wrote: post #162

If you want to use this in a business, either for an internal tool or for an application you sell, this is a horrible idea. Godot doesn't display native widgets, so it has no support for accessibility, for example to screen readers and blind users. Some people think blind people bring too little profit to care, but this is wrong for one single reason. There are some laws mandating accessibility, and more laws are bei…

Yes, at the end of the day, one can see why there are UI frameworks like Qt, GTK, Cocoa. It took many, many, many years and people to develop them and they are designed for complex desktop interfaces.

I don't like this constant reinvention of wheels. Look at Blender, it also has its own, mice UI and many other specialized graphical, image and audio apps have. Flutter also renders its widgets.But none of them is as universal and flexible as those big, battle-tested frameworks.

They are no shortcuts, proper UI is a complicated thing.

For quick, simple UIs, you may like Tk or Python's module Tkinter [1]. It is capable of creating pretty fast UIs with little code. Gitk [2] Git UI is written in Tcl + Tk.

[1] https://www.tutorialspoint.com/python/python_gui_programming...

[2] https://www.atlassian.com/git/tutorials/gitk

Re: Making Advanced GUI Applications with Godot

#255

Post by shripadk »

gridlockd wrote: post #252
shripadk wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What if tomorrow some change of parameters makes my business impossible? I'll go out of business. That's always an option. Yes and no one can sue you for going out of business. But you can be sued for violating a law while your business is in operation. > Dealing with every possible risk ahead of time generally isn't an option. No you need not if you use standard software development tools that do it for you. You w…

> No you need not if you use standard software development tools that do it for you. The belief that you just need to use "standard toolkits" and accessibility "just works" is wrong. > When there is a clear law that states that you have to make your software accessible you have no choice but to implement accessibility. There is no law that mandates implementing accessibility for all commercial software. > As far as w…

> The belief that you just need to use "standard toolkits" and accessibility "just works" is wrong.

Toolkits provide you the tools to do accessibility right. Toolkits don't do your accessibility for you. That is the biggest difference. You just misunderstood what I said.

> There is no law that mandates implementing accessibility for all commercial software.

Wrong! It applies to all software. Period.

"The Department of Justice (DOJ) published the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) Standards for Accessible Design in September 2010. These standards state that all electronic and information technology must be accessible to people with disabilities.

The ADA differs from Section 508 regulations, which are an amendment to the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 and apply to all information technology, including computer hardware, software and documentation."

In fact, the DOJ clarifies it further that accessibility is paramount and that even though the regulatory process isn't complete on paper doesn't mean that the software should remain inaccessible in the meantime.

'"The Department is currently developing regulations specifically addressing the accessibility of goods and services offered via the web by entities covered by the ADA. The fact that the regulatory process is not yet complete in no way indicates that web services are not already covered by title III."'

Source: https://www.interactiveaccessibility.com/services/ada-compli...

> ...or maybe the law doesn't actually say what you think it says.

It does. Read it.

Re: Making Advanced GUI Applications with Godot

#256

Post by nnq »

Alex----- wrote: post #253
nnq wrote: post #195

Anyone interesting in using this to create a code-editor / IDE? I'm dying to try my hands at a next gen IDE created using a game engine :D

Check out Glass Editor https://glasseditor.com/ it's made using an unreleased game engine.

...god, my eyes, they hurt, that design, they're bleeding now ...you almost made me change my mind of whether this would be a good idea :)

(Hint: I'm interested in mostly using this for creating a graphically rich but minimalistic distraction-free ADHD-friendly experience ...that could also be usable in VR for even more distraction free coding - I mean since most pro devs touch type anyway, using a keyboard in VR would just work for us, without any extra stuff.)

Re: Making Advanced GUI Applications with Godot

#257

Post by einpoklum »

jfkebwjsbx wrote: post #228
josephg wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Almost no one does accessibility properly in web apps. Screen readers can still (badly) work on web sites that haven't been made with accessibility in mind. And if you find you need to add proper accessibility to a web or native app, you can. With something like godot, you might have to rewrite the entire GUI to get accessibility working properly. > - Using Electron does not give you accessibility in any way. Yes…

> web sites We are talking about web apps, not web sites . > the screen reader output The screen reader is not supported or useless on most web apps. Again, we are talking apps and their GUI (web and native), not sites or documents. > With something like godot, you might have to rewrite the entire GUI Again a "might". I don't see any reason why you need any "rewrite". > laws Those are not for general purpose commerci…

If you've made a "web app", it must be accessible through the web, i.e. it is either a web site or a part of web site, according to all sorts of laws including probably the ones mentioned by the GP post.

Forget about the fear-mongering - think about the actual people with disabilities though.

Re: Making Advanced GUI Applications with Godot

#258

Post by einpoklum »

neop1x wrote: post #254
miki123211 wrote: post #162

If you want to use this in a business, either for an internal tool or for an application you sell, this is a horrible idea. Godot doesn't display native widgets, so it has no support for accessibility, for example to screen readers and blind users. Some people think blind people bring too little profit to care, but this is wrong for one single reason. There are some laws mandating accessibility, and more laws are bei…

Yes, at the end of the day, one can see why there are UI frameworks like Qt, GTK, Cocoa. It took many, many, many years and people to develop them and they are designed for complex desktop interfaces. I don't like this constant reinvention of wheels. Look at Blender, it also has its own, mice UI and many other specialized graphical, image and audio apps have. Flutter also renders its widgets.But none of them is as un…

gitk is a pretty bad example... its fonts are small, difficult to read and have contrast issues; and you can't copy-paste from it (at all? mostly?)

Re: Making Advanced GUI Applications with Godot

#259

Post by dragonwriter »

walski wrote: post #211
josephg wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Almost no one does accessibility properly in web apps. Screen readers can still (badly) work on web sites that haven't been made with accessibility in mind. And if you find you need to add proper accessibility to a web or native app, you can. With something like godot, you might have to rewrite the entire GUI to get accessibility working properly. > - Using Electron does not give you accessibility in any way. Yes…

The cited laws only cover public bodies, though. They are not applicable to websites or applications built in the private sector.

> They are not applicable to websites or applications built in the private sector.

The Americans with Disabilities Act, however, is applicable to private businesses; though (unless things have changed recently) there is currently an unresolved three-way split in federal circuits about high it applies to website with the Third Circuit saying it doesn’t, the First, Second, and Seventh Circuits saying it does generally, and the Sixth, Ninth, and Eleventh Circuits splitting the difference and saying it does if their is sufficient nexus between the website and a physical location of business, and the California State Courts seem to (in applying the state Unruh Civil Rights Act, which includes among it's triggers ADA violations) holding that it is at least applicable in the nexus case.

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