Live data from Hacker News

Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

msn.com

401–410 of 481 posts

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#401

I actually was sitting outside a few nights ago and realized that there was no more fireflies, and I couldn't remember the last time I had seen one. I used to go out all the time during summer as a kid to catch them, they would light up whole fields. That was just like 15 years ago. Pretty sobering realization

Lots of fireflies in my backyard every night, probably because it is partially flooded due to the record high water levels in the Great lakes. Have been trying to film them. But subpar results so far. I have a vintage 70-200 lens adopted to m4/3. It says macro on the lens, but I can't focus on anything close at all.

No shortage of lightning bugs here either. The only thing killing them is the spiders.

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the cars you spoke of are stealthed, running dark, or what? /me shakes head and thinks "Here is your sign! Hold it!"

I'll take "what?" - with "what?" being my headlights only point straight ahead. They don't curve with the road or illuminate the sides of the roads where kids/animals can dart out. I live in a neighborhood with lots of kids and pets. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S038611121...

https://www.porschefremont.com/porsche-dynamic-light-system/

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#403
post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of fireflies in my backyard every night, probably because it is partially flooded due to the record high water levels in the Great lakes. Have been trying to film them. But subpar results so far. I have a vintage 70-200 lens adopted to m4/3. It says macro on the lens, but I can't focus on anything close at all.

No shortage of lightning bugs here either. The only thing killing them is the spiders.

You should definitely film that. I bet there are thousands of people that would watch a "firefly vs spider" death match on youtube.

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#404

I actually was sitting outside a few nights ago and realized that there was no more fireflies, and I couldn't remember the last time I had seen one. I used to go out all the time during summer as a kid to catch them, they would light up whole fields. That was just like 15 years ago. Pretty sobering realization

Unless there is actual data it’s probably best to not trust your memory. Every time you remember something the reality of it changes. Memory is lossy. Bias and selection are favored over improvement or precision of recall. Every recollection is inferior to the previous one. I have a few memories of extensive fire fly experiences back in the day. But when I really think about it, I don’t remember all the days and year…

Over the last 27 years, Insect biomass has dropped by more than 75% in protected areas in Germany. I don't think this is a memory issue.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of fireflies in my yard. As prevalent as ever [1]. This is just an anecdote, but I give that anecdote as another person who lives in a somewhat rural location. Speaking of the lady bug explosion, this year they are incredibly rare [2]. Not sure why, but they went from being a massive nuisance to being a very rare sight (of any variety). Humans are absolutely having a calamitous effect on insect life in a varie…

Where are you, that I might voyage to your mystical land and once again gaze upon the gentle twinkle of firefly lights?

My neighborhood in Queens NYC has hundreds every night

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insects are a vital part of Earth's ecosystem, providing food for larger animals and (especially crucial for us) pollination. > So you won't be able to kill mosquitoes outside? There are plenty of other, more specific ways to do that, no? The problem with light traps is they are indiscriminate. Not to mention that if you apply some repellent, you don't need to kill them at all.

> There are plenty of other, more specific ways to do that, no? The problem with light traps is they are indiscriminate. Well you do usually want to kill as many as possible. Bringing up mosquitoes because it's one of the most common. I cannot go out and sit down in my garden if I have insects flying around. Unless they keep an appropriate distance as to not be intimidating. > Not to mention that if you apply some re…

> Well you do usually want to kill as many as possible.

Indiscriminate across species - those traps kill everything, not just mosquitoes. I'm sorry that you find insects intimidating but killing everything is not the answer to that and in the long run, unless you don't care about having food, ultimately counterproductive.

> If you mean the skin applied kind it's totally unsatisfactory.

Why? I've spent a lot of time in tropical countries and found it very effective. Even just a running fan keeps most mozzies away as they aren't generally strong fliers.

The overarching issue is that we need to coexist with our many-legged brethren, however inconvenient it may be.

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#407
post #13

German side streets are fairly dark already. This change will affect ‘large’ polluters, eg. floodlights in car parks, outside store areas, brightly lit buildings, etc. It is a very welcomed change. In our neighbourhood ppl knowingly plant flowers and leave grass grow ‘wild’ to support insects.

I do this too but I get bylaw visits from the city. Which cities?

I don't think any German cities bans you from having wild gardens. Quite the opposite, some cities consider banning people from replacing front yards with gravel.

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#408

This is good; we've badly underestimated the cost of excess light pollution. Also good is using more LED street lamps that focus the light where we need it, rather than all over the place. Light pollution is bad, and street lights are very power hungry, with the old sodium lights consuming up to 0.25kWh per hour.

> Also good is using more LED street lamps that focus the light where we need it, Focusing light where needed is good. Using LEDs, as we do now, has downsides though. LED lighting in cities is making astronomy and astrophotography and even animal life worse in some cases.[1] Traditional sodium vapour lights pollute around a wavelength of 589 nm.[2] That's the yellow/orange sky you used to see in the sky around cities…

We made LED lighting white because we wanted it. We can make yellow LED lighting as well. This should be suggested to city councils, if changing the wavelength would be beneficial to insects with no downsides.

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#409
post #207

This is good; we've badly underestimated the cost of excess light pollution. Also good is using more LED street lamps that focus the light where we need it, rather than all over the place. Light pollution is bad, and street lights are very power hungry, with the old sodium lights consuming up to 0.25kWh per hour.

Here's a quite good video about the pros and cons of LED vs high/low-pressure sodium street lamps: https://youtube.com/watch?v=wIC-iGDTU40 . It goes into lamp efficiency, how our eyes see differently at night, response time under different sorts of light, color temperature, circadian rhythm disruption, and light pollution.

It's a good video, but it's also a case study in being 'almost right'. The almost-correct interpretations cascade and result in a faulty conclusion: that blue-white LED streetlights are better than orange-white streetlights. Various comments object to the faulty conclusion ([1], for example).

At the end he at least addresses his ignorance:

> [18:39] You may have noticed that I didn't talk about the blue light from LEDs, and how this is supposedly ruining our eyes. That's because the "science" behind this is questionable, at best.

> [18:55] [discussion of chart with percentage blue light of various light sources]

> [19:04] [...] but considering that our eyes can withstand the intensity of sunlight, which is far far greater than any normal artificial light source, and also has a lot of blue light, and ultraviolet, which definitely is harmful, I think the 'blue light' thing is just fear-mongering. If someone can point to some verified, peer-reviewed research supporting this, and not a dodgy website, I'll consider changing my stance. In any case, the high flexibility of LED technology means it can be tuned in pretty much any way we like.

The research on the harm of blue light is out there -- For example, one of the comments links to "Effects of blue light on the circadian system and eye physiology" [0]. (only partially read at this point - I don't know if this paper gets into the mechanism of damage done by blue light, as I understand it...)

The sun hangs high in the sky and casts light on everything. We never need to look at the sun directly, we use the sun's light indirectly, after it bounces off of things. The atmosphere scatters the sun's blue light before it gets to us [2]. Artificial lights hanging on poles emitting photons we can't avoid having beamed directly into our eyes... Blue photons have relatively higher energy levels, and different physiological effects, than orange photons... [note to self: expand on this.]

The preceding video was about High Pressure Sodium lights, which I thought was good too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1dMlVwUsrA

My transcription of the video's faulty conclusion (italics added):

> To conclude: although the High Pressure Sodium light is very efficient, its primary output color is misaligned with our nighttime visibility. Only about 1/4 of its light is actually effective at stimulating the cells in our eyes. Although the cool color temperatures of many LED replacements is harsh and aesthetically displeasing, studies have shown that it is not only more efficient, but also makes driving at night safer. There is, however, the potential for greater circadian rhythm disruption and larger amounts of skyglow, using these bluer light sources.

> Still, it seems clear that the High Pressure Sodium is on its way out. Advancements in LED technology are happening at a breakneck pace. Just 10 years ago, they weren't seen as viable, but today even the least efficient of LED replacements ends up emitting the efficiency of High Pressure Sodium once scotopic light output is considered.

> As it stands in 2018, we are faced with the choice of efficiency over aesthetics. I'm pretty sure I'd enjoy roadways lit with relatively-warm 3000K LEDS, and these also wouldn't disrupt sleep much. But you can save a lot more energy, and potentially have safer roadways, with 5700K lighting.

> Either way, it seems clear that LED technology will very soon overtake the tried-and-true High Pressure Sodium lamp, just as the High Pressure Sodium itself replaced the mercury-vapor lamp. And in 40 or 50 years, who knows what technology might light our roadways.

[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4734149/pdf/mv-... - "The radically different power spectrums can look similar when viewed directly by the eye, irrespective of how much blue emission is present."

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIC-iGDTU40&lc=Ugx6MYdsMY6I_...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayleigh_scattering#Cause_of_t...

edit: this page has a discussion of drop-sag lights vs. proper fully-shielded lights: http://www.skykeepers.org/good-bad-lights-cv.html

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#410
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in Chicago (in a neighborhood close to downtown) and in previous years I'd hardly ever seen any fireflies. This year, they're everywhere -- in parks and even in trees on neighborhood streets. I understand fireflies are sensitive to light pollution. I can't imagine Chicago's any different from other major cities. COVID has people staying home a lot more but that has nothing to do with street lighting. I wonder wha…

How many bugs are on your car's windshield/grille, versus 20 years ago?

How much more aerodynamic is your car now versus then?
Post reply on HN