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Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

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Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#101

Post by travisporter »

balozi wrote: post #97

The cynic in me views this as yet another attempt at fethishizing nature by people who choose to live in sterile urban environments. The problem with this type of fetishization is that it eventually combines with class privilege to produce narrow public policy that seldom promotes the public good. Furthermore, those that live in less-urbanized less-sterile locales are painfully aware that nature and her army of insec…

Inherent in your statement is the idea that privileged people choose to live in urban environments, which is probably false half the time. I choose to live closer to work in an apartment to minimize my costs and travel time. I would love a backyard.

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#102

Post by auganov »

danparsonson wrote: post #70
auganov wrote: post #59

What's the benefit for humans and why can't it be done any other way? I'm not a big fan of encountering insects. Very weird to see someone would actually want to protect them in cities. > Light traps for insects are to be banned outdoors So you won't be able to kill mosquitoes outside?

Insects are a vital part of Earth's ecosystem, providing food for larger animals and (especially crucial for us) pollination. > So you won't be able to kill mosquitoes outside? There are plenty of other, more specific ways to do that, no? The problem with light traps is they are indiscriminate. Not to mention that if you apply some repellent, you don't need to kill them at all.

> There are plenty of other, more specific ways to do that, no? The problem with light traps is they are indiscriminate.

Well you do usually want to kill as many as possible. Bringing up mosquitoes because it's one of the most common. I cannot go out and sit down in my garden if I have insects flying around. Unless they keep an appropriate distance as to not be intimidating.

> Not to mention that if you apply some repellent

If you mean the skin applied kind it's totally unsatisfactory.

There are chemical sprays/diffusers that work very well, but even though they are marketed as "repellent" they absolutely do kill mosquitoes and many others. That's what I usually use.

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#103

Post by axbch »

masswerk wrote: post #90
anxkll wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drop according to whom? The people whose jobs depend on the alleged drop? Yesterday I had 10 flies and 5 mosquitoes simultaneously in my room. What do the bats eat? They are everywhere. There are more bats, foxes, rats and insects in big cities than ever before.

If findings are true that insects are more attracted to cold light than traditional incandescent light sources, then it's small wonder you still find significant numbers of insects where all the cold light is emitted, even if they are killed on contact with those light sources or trapped by them (which is a significant problem with mating). Same should be true for any species which follows insects as a source of food…

I'm a heretic who uses incandescent light bulbs (but no car). No shortage of insects in my room. All in the middle of a city.

How do those insects mate in the city if light prevents them from doing so?

I wonder why we are still alive. According to the Club of Rome we should have been extinct by now. But these things are a nice diversion from the real problems and a good income stream for the pundits.

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#104

Post by FrojoS »

glennpratt wrote: post #66
hn_check wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of fireflies in my yard. As prevalent as ever [1]. This is just an anecdote, but I give that anecdote as another person who lives in a somewhat rural location. Speaking of the lady bug explosion, this year they are incredibly rare [2]. Not sure why, but they went from being a massive nuisance to being a very rare sight (of any variety). Humans are absolutely having a calamitous effect on insect life in a varie…

I've listened to this conversation several times without looking it up, so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefly#Conservation "Firefly populations are declining worldwide, for a variety of reasons.[25] Fireflies, like many other organisms, are directly affected by land-use change (e.g. loss of habitat area and connectivity), which is identified as the main driver of biodiversity changes in terrestrial ecosystems.[26…

Thank you. This should be the top comment.

If there is any increase due to the lock down, my speculation would be, that it is related to less cars on the streets.

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#105

Post by hunta2097 »

komali2 wrote: post #94
42droids wrote: post #12

German side streets are fairly dark already. This change will affect ‘large’ polluters, eg. floodlights in car parks, outside store areas, brightly lit buildings, etc. It is a very welcomed change. In our neighbourhood ppl knowingly plant flowers and leave grass grow ‘wild’ to support insects.

This will be great for stargazing as well then!

As a budding stargazer I hope this dark-nights idea spreads to other countries.

Light pollution has the potential to get even worse with LED lighting which is no longer filterable like sodium lighting was.

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#106

Post by asutekku »

auganov wrote: post #59

What's the benefit for humans and why can't it be done any other way? I'm not a big fan of encountering insects. Very weird to see someone would actually want to protect them in cities. > Light traps for insects are to be banned outdoors So you won't be able to kill mosquitoes outside?

Insects are a pretty damn important part of the ecosystem that provides us our nutritions.

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#107

Post by nashalo_nighly »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #96
wenc wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in Chicago (in a neighborhood close to downtown) and in previous years I'd hardly ever seen any fireflies. This year, they're everywhere -- in parks and even in trees on neighborhood streets. I understand fireflies are sensitive to light pollution. I can't imagine Chicago's any different from other major cities. COVID has people staying home a lot more but that has nothing to do with street lighting. I wonder wha…

We live rural southern Ontario and fireflies are usually just a single weekend or so at the end of June or beginning of July. But this year they went on for almost two months. They only just stopped about a week ago. I'm not sure why it was a good season for them. Like you say, traffic, lighting, pesticide sprays on farms, all really the same despite COVID. Reduced air traffic I don't think would have an affect? Even…

I feel that I hear people say « we’re having a unusually hot dry year » every year...

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#108

Post by hn_check »

glennpratt wrote: post #66
hn_check wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of fireflies in my yard. As prevalent as ever [1]. This is just an anecdote, but I give that anecdote as another person who lives in a somewhat rural location. Speaking of the lady bug explosion, this year they are incredibly rare [2]. Not sure why, but they went from being a massive nuisance to being a very rare sight (of any variety). Humans are absolutely having a calamitous effect on insect life in a varie…

I've listened to this conversation several times without looking it up, so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefly#Conservation "Firefly populations are declining worldwide, for a variety of reasons.[25] Fireflies, like many other organisms, are directly affected by land-use change (e.g. loss of habitat area and connectivity), which is identified as the main driver of biodiversity changes in terrestrial ecosystems.[26…

Fireflies certainly are in decline in urban areas, and from that in a holistic population sense. The amount of natural areas continues to decline worldwide leading to reduced habitat for a lot of insects and animals.

However I was replying to someone who stated that they live in a rural area so lighting isn't the cause. I also live in a rural area, albeit on the edge of a very large city (e.g. there is the large light bubble on the horizon, actually from several large cities in each direction), and fireflies are absolutely rampant, and have been for years. My comments makes zero claims about the worldwide population of fireflies, or about how many fireflies there are in your or anyone else's backyard. In mine there are loads.

However it is a reality that localized ebbs and flows happen. Nature is prone to waxing and waning. The reproductive potential of many insects is so enormous that one year can be a dearth and the next overwhelming. Small seasonal weather variations, of the completely ordinary and natural kind, can dramatically impact the mix.

To go back to the ladybugs, specifically the Asian ladybugs, last year they were everywhere. Every corner would have a bunch of them. They'd get in the house and then smash into the ceiling near every pot light leaving discolorations (blood or something). This year I've seen barely a dozen or so all season. It's just a complete 180.

Aside - I swear I am not intending to be combative, but the citations make me recall a prior comment-

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23899565

The Wikipedia page you link cites the second link you gave as its source to demonstrate the worldwide decline in fireflies. That citation cites nothing as its source but fond recollections of youth.

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#109

Post by zackmorris »

The best thing we can do on a personal level is to stop using broadleaf weedkillers like Scott's Weed and Feed and other herbicides like glyphosate (Roundup).

I've been doing handyman work at my boss's house during COVID-19 and he has clover growing in his yard. He has a fair number of bees, certainly more than on my end of town which is all chemlawns.

It's arguably ok to use a little weed killer by hand on dandelions if you must (better to spray 2-3 courses of vinegar instead). But killing all clover, morning glories, and other broadleaf flowers in lawns has led to the near-extinction of bees in residential areas. Herbicides and pesticides in agriculture wiped out the rest.

Edit: fixed the first sentence to distinguish between broadleaf herbicides and glyphosate (which kills everything).

Re: Germany plans to dim lights at night to save insects

#110

Post by novaleaf »

thatguy0900 wrote: post #16

I actually was sitting outside a few nights ago and realized that there was no more fireflies, and I couldn't remember the last time I had seen one. I used to go out all the time during summer as a kid to catch them, they would light up whole fields. That was just like 15 years ago. Pretty sobering realization

and to your children, it will be the way nature always was.
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