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A new design ship in the Philippines is partly powered by wave energy

bbc.com

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Re: A new design ship in the Philippines is partly powered by wave energy

#51

Post by reportgunner »

pjc50 wrote: post #36
mehrdadn wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The digital emissions from this story are an estimated 1.2g to 3.6g CO2 per page view. Holy cow, that is a lot . 1-3 grams of CO2 per single load of a page? Makes me feel guilty about even clicking the article.

The average human breathes out 1g of CO2 every minute and a half. By comparison, average UK cars put out 124.5g for every km driven. It's not nothing, but it's not a lot either. It probably is worth evaluating the electrical efficiency of the tech industry as a whole, both in terms of highly executed code hotspots and entire pieces of business of questionable utility (ad javascript, cryptocurrency proof-of-waste), bu…

What is the comparison of the number of cars in the world versus the number of people in the world ?

Re: A new design ship in the Philippines is partly powered by wave energy

#52

Post by berkes »

dgivney wrote: post #21
hoorayimhelping wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're vastly underestimating how slow it is to ship things by sail. Take a look at some of the routes boats had to take to avoid the doldrums and find favorable winds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winds_in_the_Age_of_Sail . Having to sail 2/3 of the way to America just to stay in good winds added 3 weeks to a month to every trip out of Spain or Portugal. Take a look at the clipper route https://en.wikipedia…

You are correct for that time period and technology. Linen sails on square rigged vessels required directional winds towards your destination, as they were only efficient for downwind sailing. Things have greatly improved with the wide adoption of the Bermuda Rig allowing you to efficiently set a course on all points of sail; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda_rig There's many challenges for sailing commercial fre…

Also note that many ships don't require speed.

Yes, your avocado's have to be delivered very time-sensitive. But coal, oil, soy and most other bulk not so much.

In fact, due to price-fluctuations, ships delivering bulk goods sometimes deliberately slow down their route (but I cannot find the incident where and when this was reported anymore)

Edit: three guys I know, operate a sail-powered cargo service [1]. Time is a factor, not because clients require speedy delivery, but because paying three sailors for 2 weeks on-board is more expensive than 3 days. They deliver e.g. chocolate from the west-indies to Amsterdam with their boat.

[1] https://fairtransport.eu/nl/tres-hombres/

Re: A new design ship in the Philippines is partly powered by wave energy

#53

Post by sephamorr »

maelito wrote: post #47
barbegal wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is the methodology https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200131-why-and-how-does... I think most of it comes from your client device. Your laptop may be using 50W of power or about 20g of CO2 per hour so reading the article for 6 minutes is ~2g of CO2.

In case someone wants to do the math again : 50W for 1 hour : 50Wh or 0.050kWh California : 187gCO₂eq/kWh according to https://www.electricitymap.org/zone/US-CAL-CISO -> 9.35gCO₂eq/h -> 0.16g/min -> 0.935g for 6 minutes

I'd probably use closer to 10W as the device power level (a standard laptop, what I'm using right now), so the number for me would get close to 0.2g, but your point stands; the article is answering a different question than I was assuming, but regardless it seems that the majority of the energy is clearly the local device.

Re: A new design ship in the Philippines is partly powered by wave energy

#55

Post by maelito »

sephamorr wrote: post #53
maelito wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case someone wants to do the math again : 50W for 1 hour : 50Wh or 0.050kWh California : 187gCO₂eq/kWh according to https://www.electricitymap.org/zone/US-CAL-CISO -> 9.35gCO₂eq/h -> 0.16g/min -> 0.935g for 6 minutes

I'd probably use closer to 10W as the device power level (a standard laptop, what I'm using right now), so the number for me would get close to 0.2g, but your point stands; the article is answering a different question than I was assuming, but regardless it seems that the majority of the energy is clearly the local device.

Isn't a modern laptop mostly idle after loading the page (There would be a peak for the first seconds, then less than 10W for the rest of the reading time ?

Re: A new design ship in the Philippines is partly powered by wave energy

#56

Post by ben_w »

akiselev wrote: post #35
dtech wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not a lot. it's about 4mWh for coal power. In comparison, leaving a 300W computer setup on for 10 hours each day with coal power is 3KWh or 2.5kg of CO2.

So it takes the computing power equivalent of a 300W PC running for 10 hours to serve a thousand page views? At 50 req/page view, that server is handling ~1.5 requests per second. That kind of throughput can be handled by a RaspberryPi, so are we seriously wasting 95%+ of the power budget routing packets and idling servers?

A million, not a thousand. Milliwatt-hours to kilowatt-hours.

Re: A new design ship in the Philippines is partly powered by wave energy

#57

Post by Twisell »

sephamorr wrote: post #42
mehrdadn wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The digital emissions from this story are an estimated 1.2g to 3.6g CO2 per page view. Holy cow, that is a lot . 1-3 grams of CO2 per single load of a page? Makes me feel guilty about even clicking the article.

I'm having a very hard time rationalizing these numbers. Something has to have some very poor assumptions: Let's assume each page load is ~1mbit, and it's being served from 1000km away. 1mbit may be low, but most of it will presumably be content delivered by a CDN which is far closer than 1000km. The reference design (which I work on) for 400G DWDM systems are ~100W for 2 transceivers + EDFA + switches, for a standar…

Rest assured that you can make the numbers even worse by using a VPN thus requiring even more intermediate servers and cryptographic computations.

But before admonishing users please consider defending Net Neutrality and copyright reforms so that theses workaround become useless (for general usage). And while you are at it don't refrain from taxing ad-networks that use bandwidth and cpu cycle with over-engineered adware!

But nah, better stick to boomers worldviews, Governments and Big Corp can't do nothing for the planet because people are so dumb ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: A new design ship in the Philippines is partly powered by wave energy

#58

Post by codegrappler »

Twisell wrote: post #57
sephamorr wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having a very hard time rationalizing these numbers. Something has to have some very poor assumptions: Let's assume each page load is ~1mbit, and it's being served from 1000km away. 1mbit may be low, but most of it will presumably be content delivered by a CDN which is far closer than 1000km. The reference design (which I work on) for 400G DWDM systems are ~100W for 2 transceivers + EDFA + switches, for a standar…

Rest assured that you can make the numbers even worse by using a VPN thus requiring even more intermediate servers and cryptographic computations. But before admonishing users please consider defending Net Neutrality and copyright reforms so that theses workaround become useless (for general usage). And while you are at it don't refrain from taxing ad-networks that use bandwidth and cpu cycle with over-engineered adw…

How is this comment admonishing users? It looks like an attempt to put mathematical justification to a claim.

Re: A new design ship in the Philippines is partly powered by wave energy

#59

Post by danielbarla »

barbegal wrote: post #43
sephamorr wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having a very hard time rationalizing these numbers. Something has to have some very poor assumptions: Let's assume each page load is ~1mbit, and it's being served from 1000km away. 1mbit may be low, but most of it will presumably be content delivered by a CDN which is far closer than 1000km. The reference design (which I work on) for 400G DWDM systems are ~100W for 2 transceivers + EDFA + switches, for a standar…

Here is the methodology https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200131-why-and-how-does... I think most of it comes from your client device. Your laptop may be using 50W of power or about 20g of CO2 per hour so reading the article for 6 minutes is ~2g of CO2.

That makes quite a lot of sense, but it also makes me frown a bit at the phrasing, which I feel is quite misleading.

"The digital emissions from this story are an estimated 1.2g to 3.6g CO2 per page view."

Re-reading it, technically they are right, if "view" is taken in a non-technical fashion. But everyone reading that text would assume if they click refresh, the emissions are doubled.

Also, I do wonder if they take into account bounced users - I would not be surprised if most people only spent 5 or so seconds on the page before moving on.

Re: A new design ship in the Philippines is partly powered by wave energy

#60

Post by bigbluedots »

Xylakant wrote: post #33
bigbluedots wrote: post #29

Aren't all ships partly powered by wave energy if they're facing the right way?

No, generally speaking, waves pass underneath a floating object in practically all circumstances. You may feel like there’s a forward surge when a wave comes in from behind, but all forward momentum gained while sliding down the wave is lost once the wave peak has overtaken you and you’re climbing back up the wave. Basically, waves will induce a circular motion on a floating object. There’s ways to trick and gain for…

Thank you for such a thoughtful response.
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