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.NET Team Survey: Native AOT

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Re: .NET Team Survey: Native AOT

#21

Post by pjmlp »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #18
jeswin wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is about being able to use the language/framework you already know to compile to pure native binaries (like Rust, but with GC). It's a big deal since it makes C# viable in places where it isn't currently, like a lot of Go's use cases. I had been away from C# for nearly 6 years, but was able to pick up Core in a couple of days. If anything, things have gotten simpler and there's fairly good cross platform support…

That was a requirement twenty years ago when the framework wasn't bundled in the operating system and download speeds were much slower. It's really a non-issue now.

The whole point of .NET Core is to bundle the framework with the application.

Re: .NET Team Survey: Native AOT

#22

Post by mariusmg »

jiggawatts wrote: post #13
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect a lot of people (myself included) will just stop at 4.8.

Just this week I wanted to spin up a minimalist ASP.NET page for "tyre-kicking" of new infra builds. You know, something that just coughs up a single page with some basic info, such as the regional options, time zone, current time, and the latency to the SQL Server. This checks that the infra guys did their job and that the AD accounts and firewall ports are in place. I wanted to write 1 page with just some dynamic l…

>No dependency injection. No JavaScript frameworks. >Visual Studio 2019 no longer ships with a web project template that does that. Every single project type coughs up megabytes of crap and a bunch of scaffolding.

Yeah, the way depency injection and multiple JS frameworks are shoved down your throat in .NET Core is sooo annoying.

Re: .NET Team Survey: Native AOT

#24

Post by JamesNK »

jiggawatts wrote: post #13
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect a lot of people (myself included) will just stop at 4.8.

Just this week I wanted to spin up a minimalist ASP.NET page for "tyre-kicking" of new infra builds. You know, something that just coughs up a single page with some basic info, such as the regional options, time zone, current time, and the latency to the SQL Server. This checks that the infra guys did their job and that the AD accounts and firewall ports are in place. I wanted to write 1 page with just some dynamic l…

It is strange that you couldn't find the empty web template. Every version of ASP.NET Core has come with one. Empty is the first option in the "Create a new ASP.NET Core web application" dialog in VS2019, and "dotnet new web" creates an empty website via the command line.

What did you need to do to create an empty website?

Disclaimer: I work on ASP.NET Core

Re: .NET Team Survey: Native AOT

#25

Post by ptx »

josteink wrote: post #16
jiggawatts wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've honestly given up. The new "open" development style of .NET Core is not my cup of tea. It's now riddled with MVP features that are 80% complete, bug-ridden, and undocumented other than couple of blog articles. The compatibility break with the .NET Framework also removed the biggest advantage I saw in C#, which was that any code that I wrote would "just work". Now there's more frameworks, standards, cores, and bu…

> The compatibility break with the .NET Framework also removed the biggest advantage I saw in C# I'll be honest here. The migration from .NET Framework to .NET Core is a pain. I see why things were done the way they were done, but it's still a real pain. That said: for green-field works NET Core is clearly superior. > PowerShell Core is past version 7 but is still missing many modules, including some key Microsoft on…

But if .NET Core was not meant to replace the .NET Framework, why is Microsoft doing just that with .NET 5?

(Yes, the old framework will still exist after it's been replaced - the same way VB 6 still exists after being replaced by VB.NET and IE still exists after being replaced by Edge.)

Re: .NET Team Survey: Native AOT

#26

Post by lwansbrough »

Man it would be sweet to see Unity adopt CoreRT in .NET 5 and just drop all the C++ conversion nonsense.

Edit: interesting, someone wrote about this a couple years ago: https://xoofx.com/blog/2018/04/06/porting-unity-to-coreclr

I wonder if there’s movement on this internally at Unity.

Re: .NET Team Survey: Native AOT

#27

Post by tasogare »

pjmlp wrote: post #10
jiggawatts wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've honestly given up. The new "open" development style of .NET Core is not my cup of tea. It's now riddled with MVP features that are 80% complete, bug-ridden, and undocumented other than couple of blog articles. The compatibility break with the .NET Framework also removed the biggest advantage I saw in C#, which was that any code that I wrote would "just work". Now there's more frameworks, standards, cores, and bu…

MAUI is Xamarin rebranded. Even with its half broken implementations, .NET and Java are still the best options in tooling and managed runtime capabilities.

And it will be crap. What I want, and I'm sure a lot of other devs interested in making C# GUI multi-platform apps, is an UI framework à la Flutter that display the same thing everywhere. In the days of Electron apps not having a native look and feel is not a really problem anymore.

The saddest thing is that Microsoft actually offered that years before: Silverlight Out-of-Browser applications, that where running the same on Windows and Mac OS.

Re: .NET Team Survey: Native AOT

#28

Post by josteink »

ptx wrote: post #25
josteink wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The compatibility break with the .NET Framework also removed the biggest advantage I saw in C# I'll be honest here. The migration from .NET Framework to .NET Core is a pain. I see why things were done the way they were done, but it's still a real pain. That said: for green-field works NET Core is clearly superior. > PowerShell Core is past version 7 but is still missing many modules, including some key Microsoft on…

But if .NET Core was not meant to replace the .NET Framework, why is Microsoft doing just that with .NET 5? (Yes, the old framework will still exist after it's been replaced - the same way VB 6 still exists after being replaced by VB.NET and IE still exists after being replaced by Edge.)

You are allowed to change your mind, aren't you? :)

The goal for the initial .NET Core project was to have something cross-platform, modular and lightweight to build Linux-deployable cloud-services with.

Once that reached a mature state, they could expand scope.

And now, after .NET Core 3.x has landed, it has matured so much, that MS can see one single unified path forward which also includes some things which previously was only possible using the traditional .NET Framework (4.8).

So now they are adding those use-cases to the "Core" package as well, without compromising on what .NET Core was supposed to deliver. I honestly don't see anything wrong with that.

Re: .NET Team Survey: Native AOT

#29

Post by kqr »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #17
moksly wrote: post #2

I’ve been a C# developer for two (almost) decades, how do people even keep up with these rapid changes in the post Core world and what/when to use them? This is a serious question by the way.

You probably shouldn't, your customers won't notice. Joel Spolsky wrote a brilliant essay on this: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/01/06/fire-and-motion/

Although I don't identify with the "fire" part of that analogy, I agree it seems excessive to keep up with all the fine technical details of new features.

Programming language improvements can, at best, give us small decreases in accidental complexity.

Good software engineering practises (ruthless prioritisation, proper modularisation, continuous integration) etc. can have huge effects on both inherent and accidental complexity. It is much more important to spend time on those things. They are independent of specific programming language features.

Re: .NET Team Survey: Native AOT

#30

Post by arethuza »

jiggawatts wrote: post #13
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect a lot of people (myself included) will just stop at 4.8.

Just this week I wanted to spin up a minimalist ASP.NET page for "tyre-kicking" of new infra builds. You know, something that just coughs up a single page with some basic info, such as the regional options, time zone, current time, and the latency to the SQL Server. This checks that the infra guys did their job and that the AD accounts and firewall ports are in place. I wanted to write 1 page with just some dynamic l…

I had VS 2019 open and tried this - creating an empty project is the first entry on the list of templates - all it contains is a minimal Program.cs and Startup.cs - nothing else.

When run all it does is return "Hello World!" in plain text - it doesn't even use HTML.

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