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Briar Project

briarproject.org

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Re: Briar Project

#181

Post by maqp »

Legogris wrote: post #179
maqp wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus Christ, that must be fourth or fifth "whitepaper" I see from the cryptocurrency community. Here's what a proper whitepapers should look like: https://signal.org/docs/specifications/x3dh/x3dh.pdf https://signal.org/docs/specifications/doubleratchet/doubler... Status' whitepaper looks like marketing material for investors, not a technical description for infosec professionals. I find the content almost repulsive.

> Status' whitepaper looks like marketing material for investors TBF, that is the more commonly understood meaning of "white paper". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_paper#In_business-to-bus...

Oh, TIL. I'm still unable to find the information from the white paper that was promised to be there.

Re: Briar Project

#182

Post by michaelsbradley »

maqp wrote: post #181
Legogris wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Status' whitepaper looks like marketing material for investors TBF, that is the more commonly understood meaning of "white paper". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_paper#In_business-to-bus...

Oh, TIL. I'm still unable to find the information from the white paper that was promised to be there.

Status core contributor here. Which information in particular are you looking for?

In answer to your questions above:

What [do] the currency and/or blockchain brings to the table?

Decentralized messaging tech aims at making 1-1 and group messaging more secure. It is not inherently tied to blockchain / cryptocurrency, though for an economically incentivized network of mailserver nodes it could make sense to realize the incentivization mechanisms via cryptocurrency transfers.

See: https://vac.dev/vac-overview

The Waku protocol, currently used by the Status mobile and desktops apps, is being developed by the Vac team, which is part of Status.

The Status client includes an Ethereum wallet because many people interested in the messaging technology are also interested in cryptocurrency.

Is it a paid app?

No, it is free to download and free to use, and all the software developed by Status is open source: https://github.com/status-im/

Does it store ciphertexts indenfinitely to the blockchain? Or public keys?

Sending and receiving messages does not involve transactions on the blockchain; messages are not stored on the blockchain.

You may be interested to read more in the technical FAQ:

https://status.im/technical/FAQs.html

Re: Briar Project

#183

Post by jpetso »

giancarlostoro wrote: post #38
placebo wrote: post #35

In an authoritarian regime with large masses of human and technological resources determined to have control over its population, nothing is really secure. Sending a message that can't be read by a third party? You're suspect. Have an illegal app installed on your registered "report to big brother" phone? Expect an unfriendly visit by big brother police. Don't have a "big brother" phone? There are various ways of sni…

If only Google and Apple would make a fully end to end encrypted chatting platform to take place of SMS that is fully federated and not controlled by a single entity, something the likes of Signal could support / join in on and other chat apps. When you turn crypto into something the masses use seamlessly it gets a little more complicated to figure out who the suspects are. Also default to not synching to the cloud,…

Funny that you should mention Signal as example for joining a federated service when they have actively and vocally moved away from federation.

https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/

Re: Briar Project

#184

Post by maqp »

fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #177
maqp wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's good. The last time I had a look at Matrix clients it was a mess. IIUC the E2EE isn't enabled by default for the old Riot client, only RiotX and Riot web have it. What happens if someone with old Riot client creates a room and someone with e.g. RiotX joins it, will it force E2EE on? Or will it fall back to non-E2EE messaging?

The creator and admins of the room picks the encryption preferences, iiuc: if you have a client that doesn’t support E2EE, you might be able to create an encrypted room (?) but it would be pretty useless. The clients all clearly mark the encryption status of the room you’re in.

So if an ignorant/malicious user creates a room without E2EE and doesn't care to enable it even when requested, all users are forced to converse in effectively plaintext, and the solution is "clients tell users it's not E2EE".

IMO it should be the case that it's always E2EE, no other options. Until that's the case I think Matrix ecosystem isn't keeping up with centralized solutions like Signal.

Re: Briar Project

#185

Post by maqp »

foresto wrote: post #175
maqp wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"when they accepted new owners/investors." IMHO we should be able to determine the amount of trust we can put on the app from the client alone. If FOSS client uses E2EE, no matter what the server starts doing when the service changes ownership will have an effect on it. Of course the new owner could e.g. start selling user metadata, but that's something you should kind of assume the service is doing anyway (just beca…

I agree in principle, and I look forward to the day when all my requirements can be met without self-hosting or trusting another party with metadata. After all, most people don't have the means to self-host. Multiple projects (including Matrix) are working in that direction, but I'm not holding my breath; metadata exists at multiple layers, and is a hard problem to solve. Until that day, a public host with the right…

What's the issue with self-hosting? It's not that expensive to run a netbook 24/7 with an Onion Service. I'm doing that for my FreedomBox with radicale etc. ATM.

There's no overhead costs like static IP or hostname.

I can agree with the point of "average user lacks the skills" so that's something that needs good tutorials.

But then there's apps like Briar that just run on your phone, that bring the complexity down to these users.

Re: Briar Project

#186

Post by maqp »

michaelsbradley wrote: post #182
maqp wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, TIL. I'm still unable to find the information from the white paper that was promised to be there.

Status core contributor here. Which information in particular are you looking for? In answer to your questions above: What [do] the currency and/or blockchain brings to the table ? Decentralized messaging tech aims at making 1-1 and group messaging more secure. It is not inherently tied to blockchain / cryptocurrency, though for an economically incentivized network of mailserver nodes it could make sense to realize t…

Key exchange algorithm, symmetric cipher and mode of operation, is it forward secret, future secret, how are keys generated (CSPRNG algorithm), how are the ciphers tested (test vectors, links to test vector sources and to unittests doing test vectors), rationale for primitive choices. How are key changes handled, what kind of warning is displayed when public key changes, fingerprint encoding, cryptographic protocol descriptions, threat model (the more transparent the better), if blockchain is used to provide e.g. key authenticity.

"The Status client includes an Ethereum wallet because many people interested in the messaging technology are also interested in cryptocurrency."

So it's an encrypted messenger with a wallet, OK.

"Decentralized messaging tech aims at making 1-1 and group messaging more secure."

So you should discuss the monetary incentives for people to host a decentralized server, and also discuss how malicious state entities running servers is not economically viable, if that's the case, or tell that it's not the case. You should also discuss how it makes it more secure.

So tl;dr create an article for cryptographers/infosec folks that need to understand how the security works (and please remember most people in those circles are really allergic to marketing language and buzzwords unless it's a technical property).

Re: Briar Project

#187

Post by michaelsbradley »

maqp wrote: post #186
michaelsbradley wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Status core contributor here. Which information in particular are you looking for? In answer to your questions above: What [do] the currency and/or blockchain brings to the table ? Decentralized messaging tech aims at making 1-1 and group messaging more secure. It is not inherently tied to blockchain / cryptocurrency, though for an economically incentivized network of mailserver nodes it could make sense to realize t…

Key exchange algorithm, symmetric cipher and mode of operation, is it forward secret, future secret, how are keys generated (CSPRNG algorithm), how are the ciphers tested (test vectors, links to test vector sources and to unittests doing test vectors), rationale for primitive choices. How are key changes handled, what kind of warning is displayed when public key changes, fingerprint encoding, cryptographic protocol d…

I think most of the information you're looking for is documented in the specs:

https://github.com/status-im/specs/tree/master/docs

https://github.com/vacp2p/specs/tree/master/specs

Monetary incentivization for running a mailserver is being researched and (afaik) is not yet implemented or specified. There is a relevant discussion forum:

https://forum.vac.dev/

Activity there is currently light because most core contributors' time, at present, is being spent on other pressing tasks.

See also: https://discuss.status.im/

Re: Briar Project

#188

Post by fiddlerwoaroof »

maqp wrote: post #184
fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The creator and admins of the room picks the encryption preferences, iiuc: if you have a client that doesn’t support E2EE, you might be able to create an encrypted room (?) but it would be pretty useless. The clients all clearly mark the encryption status of the room you’re in.

So if an ignorant/malicious user creates a room without E2EE and doesn't care to enable it even when requested, all users are forced to converse in effectively plaintext, and the solution is "clients tell users it's not E2EE". IMO it should be the case that it's always E2EE, no other options. Until that's the case I think Matrix ecosystem isn't keeping up with centralized solutions like Signal.

E2EE is really annoying, in lots of ways: if the users in the room want encryption, I’d rather they just create a new room.

Re: Briar Project

#189

Post by Legogris »

mpartel wrote: post #109
Legogris wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is precisely why it's important to make these tools (protocols/applications) part of the core layer of how businesses operate consumer-facing services online; it's only true if the ratio of "interesting" communication over these channels is high enough. In an alternative timeline where ISPs where more strictly regulated and trusted and everything was cleartext HTTP, I'm certain that HTTPS/TLS would face pushback…

Oppressors can (and I think some already do) subvert HTTPS by mandating installation of government-issued certs so they can do their MITM.

My sibling response was apparently already out of touch when I wrote it.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/china-is-now-blocking-all-encr...

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