American darknet vendor and Costa Rican pharmacist charged • Hacker News Board

Re: American darknet vendor and Costa Rican pharmacist charged

#61

Post by Implicated » Thu, Aug 06, 2020, 6:44 AM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #59

arcticbull wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is your regular reminder that Portugal decriminalized all drugs in 2001 and usage did not go up but the health effects and negative societal effects of drug use all but vanished [1]. They went from worst in the EU to among the best in the EU in the decade that followed on pretty much every metric. Addiction has a huge situational component. 20% of US GIs in Vietnam were addicted to heroin. When they returned hom…

This is your regular reminder that extrapolating an outcome from a country like Portugal (an outcome we should all be happy about, by the way) to a country like the United States is unwise. I've never been to Portugal, but have friends that live in both Spain and Portugal and I'm pretty envious of the kind of community and shared identity they describe. I image that probably has something to do with the outcome seen…

> we've tried this experiment in some US cities and it's not resulted in anything anyone could describe as a success.

We have? Can we get a citation on that?

Re: American darknet vendor and Costa Rican pharmacist charged

#62

Post by raverbashing » Thu, Aug 06, 2020, 6:49 AM UTC

263943736 wrote: post #9

CameronNemo wrote: post #2

Justice is such a poor way to describe what is happening here. I have full empathy with those who have struggled with opioid addiction or lost loved ones to the disease. But the fact is that opioid prescriptions are still being written with too little oversight, too few safeguards, and not enough support for patients. Withstanding such contradiction in treatment of opioid suppliers, the federal government cannot keep…

Opioids are among the best medications for treating severe pain. If we're focusing on patients I'd much rather focus on rehabilitative strategies since the current degree of increased scrutiny is already making accessing adequate medication more difficult for groups like the elderly or people with chronic pain. Even more increased oversight is just going to escalate hesitation among doctors.

Doubt it

Especially as it is prescribed in the US, where drugs get preferred instead of other interventions. "Back pain? Opioids. No PT, no losing weight, just opioids. No, not even NSAIDS, just go for opioids"

Remember that some drug companies pushed for their medication to be in 12h regimens which increased their dependency potential, as opposed to a shorter interval preferred by doctors?

As a personal experience, opioids don't seem to work much for me on many types of pain.

Re: American darknet vendor and Costa Rican pharmacist charged

#63

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 06, 2020, 6:50 AM UTC

3131s wrote: post #57

It's 2020 and if you are still against legalization, or at least decriminalization, you are the enemy. It's no longer incumbent on anyone else to explain to you why the drug war is immoral, prejudiced, and stupid. Violence is exploding all over the country and homicide clearance rates are at an all time low. The irony of what these fat, beer-swilling thugs at the "Department of Justice" and DEA are doing will not be…

[deleted]

Re: American darknet vendor and Costa Rican pharmacist charged

#64

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 06, 2020, 6:53 AM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #59

arcticbull wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is your regular reminder that Portugal decriminalized all drugs in 2001 and usage did not go up but the health effects and negative societal effects of drug use all but vanished [1]. They went from worst in the EU to among the best in the EU in the decade that followed on pretty much every metric. Addiction has a huge situational component. 20% of US GIs in Vietnam were addicted to heroin. When they returned hom…

This is your regular reminder that extrapolating an outcome from a country like Portugal (an outcome we should all be happy about, by the way) to a country like the United States is unwise. I've never been to Portugal, but have friends that live in both Spain and Portugal and I'm pretty envious of the kind of community and shared identity they describe. I image that probably has something to do with the outcome seen…

[deleted]

Re: American darknet vendor and Costa Rican pharmacist charged

#65

Post by neuroma » Thu, Aug 06, 2020, 7:17 AM UTC

Aerroon wrote: post #23

263943736 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opioids are among the best medications for treating severe pain. If we're focusing on patients I'd much rather focus on rehabilitative strategies since the current degree of increased scrutiny is already making accessing adequate medication more difficult for groups like the elderly or people with chronic pain. Even more increased oversight is just going to escalate hesitation among doctors.

I wonder where most of the harm is coming from with opioids. Do the opioids themselves cause more harm than society does by making them illegal? The cases I've mostly heard about seemed to be that people hot addicted to opioids and the only way to keep it going was to break the law. That eventually got them in trouble. For some drugs it does seem like the government trying to protect you from the drugs do more harm t…

Prof Nutt made and published a universal harm scale which accounts for multi dimensional harm of drugs, and potentially allows comparisons to be made between them https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6109763/#B29. This work got him sacked from his lead advisory role to the UK govt, as it undermined the policy and caused embarrassment. Nutt still works in Imperial College researching psychedelics as novel therapeutics. The money shot is this https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Overall-weighted-scores-...

A recent article which contextualises the work is here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6109763/

Re: American darknet vendor and Costa Rican pharmacist charged

#66

Post by remarkEon » Thu, Aug 06, 2020, 7:19 AM UTC

Implicated wrote: post #61

remarkEon wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is your regular reminder that extrapolating an outcome from a country like Portugal (an outcome we should all be happy about, by the way) to a country like the United States is unwise. I've never been to Portugal, but have friends that live in both Spain and Portugal and I'm pretty envious of the kind of community and shared identity they describe. I image that probably has something to do with the outcome seen…

> we've tried this experiment in some US cities and it's not resulted in anything anyone could describe as a success. We have? Can we get a citation on that?

Portland, Oakland, Seattle for starters. Maybe you have a different definition of decriminalization.

Re: American darknet vendor and Costa Rican pharmacist charged

#67

Post by KMag » Thu, Aug 06, 2020, 7:48 AM UTC

3131s wrote: post #57

It's 2020 and if you are still against legalization, or at least decriminalization, you are the enemy. It's no longer incumbent on anyone else to explain to you why the drug war is immoral, prejudiced, and stupid. Violence is exploding all over the country and homicide clearance rates are at an all time low. The irony of what these fat, beer-swilling thugs at the "Department of Justice" and DEA are doing will not be…

I'm all for legalization and harm reduction, but declaring people enemies simply for disagreeing with you is stifling the conversation.

Shutting down the conversation locks in the status quo.

Re: American darknet vendor and Costa Rican pharmacist charged

#68

Post by malux85 » Thu, Aug 06, 2020, 7:52 AM UTC

jimkleiber wrote: post #14

CameronNemo wrote: post #2

Justice is such a poor way to describe what is happening here. I have full empathy with those who have struggled with opioid addiction or lost loved ones to the disease. But the fact is that opioid prescriptions are still being written with too little oversight, too few safeguards, and not enough support for patients. Withstanding such contradiction in treatment of opioid suppliers, the federal government cannot keep…

Your comment reminds me of an episode of Joe Rogan with Johann Hari [1], talking about what really causes addiction and the failures of the "war on drugs." He states, "The opposite of addiction is not sobriety, the opposite of addiction is connection." (18:08) The former U.S. surgeon general, Vivek Murthy, declared loneliness an epidemic, and just wrote a book on it [2]. I believe the biggest challenge we face in the…

> How did he get so numb in life in general?

You laden them with paralysing amounts of debt in their late teens, force them into capitalistic servitude for the rest of the life. Make sure they earn only just enough to survive. Make sure they work until they are totally exhausted and you can’t squeeze another dollar of productivity out of them.

Make sure they think the only alternative to this is homelessness/total destitution.

Then don’t give them a legal or ethical option that shows them any future other than the above until they are dead, while their bosses boss gets rich.

Then wonder why they act unethically

Re: American darknet vendor and Costa Rican pharmacist charged

#69

Post by GordonS » Thu, Aug 06, 2020, 8:00 AM UTC

KerrickStaley wrote: post #18

CameronNemo wrote: post #2

Justice is such a poor way to describe what is happening here. I have full empathy with those who have struggled with opioid addiction or lost loved ones to the disease. But the fact is that opioid prescriptions are still being written with too little oversight, too few safeguards, and not enough support for patients. Withstanding such contradiction in treatment of opioid suppliers, the federal government cannot keep…

> even moderate use can be balanced with a healthy lifestyle Genuinely curious: this doesn't really mesh with my understanding. I think opioids are extremely addictive (more so than tobacco or even cocaine or amphetamine) and as a result it's nearly impossible to be a "casual" user (and therefore I don't ever intend to try any opioids). Is there evidence that opioids can be "moderately" used?

> as a result it's nearly impossible to be a "casual" user

I wonder about the truth of this. I've done a lot of reading at places like Bluelight (for research and curiosity), and it seems there really are a lot of people who set strict guidelines for their drug use and are able to use opioids periodically without addiction.

Re: American darknet vendor and Costa Rican pharmacist charged

#70

Post by raxxorrax » Thu, Aug 06, 2020, 8:06 AM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #59

arcticbull wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is your regular reminder that Portugal decriminalized all drugs in 2001 and usage did not go up but the health effects and negative societal effects of drug use all but vanished [1]. They went from worst in the EU to among the best in the EU in the decade that followed on pretty much every metric. Addiction has a huge situational component. 20% of US GIs in Vietnam were addicted to heroin. When they returned hom…

This is your regular reminder that extrapolating an outcome from a country like Portugal (an outcome we should all be happy about, by the way) to a country like the United States is unwise. I've never been to Portugal, but have friends that live in both Spain and Portugal and I'm pretty envious of the kind of community and shared identity they describe. I image that probably has something to do with the outcome seen…

That the experience of war made people take more drugs does actually tell something, but I doubt it is favorable towards the argument for stricter enforcement.