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Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#121

Post by cuspy »

slg wrote: post #107
cuspy wrote: post #55

Given the track record of institutional science and the ever-growing list of regulatory failures, moral failures and outright abuses pushed in the guise of scientific expertise, why do so many people seem to think that simply doubling down and bullying the general population into compliance with expert consensus will ever work? What if institutional science in the US has a legitimacy crisis because it has failed to p…

>What if institutional science in the US has a legitimacy crisis because it has failed to police its own corruption and failed to address its own limitations and vulnerabilities? What if everyday people can see this more clearly than those striving on the margins of these institutions? You are giving the anti-science crowd a huge benefit of the doubt. I don't think people who believe the Earth is flat or that wearing…

Maybe I'm being too charitable, but wouldn't it be worse if it turned out that you were holding back progress in the conversation by insisting that ALL of your interlocutors are incapable of thinking critically?

We need to be more strategic than vindictive. Why not forget about the notion of a mass "anti-science crowd" and have some basic respect for your fellow citizens as individuals with widely varying levels of education due in no small part to these same institutional problems. We've failed them. I think your examples are straw men that contribute no real insight to the cause of the problems.

Also, just to be clear, a variation of that rumor about masks was indeed pushed by the surgeon general in early March:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/02/health/surgeon-general-corona...

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#122

Post by azinman2 »

ohduran wrote: post #34

Maybe the reason we are in this mess is because we relied too much on science, and too little on actual humanities (rhetoric, logic, and so on)? I hear about hermeneutics more and more in my circle: how to communicate trumps what is communicated. I can see why Fauci and many top scientists fail to convince people like Trump and his supporters: he knows, but can't communicate what he knows so that information is conve…

Perhaps you’re not recalling that the trump admin early on said all public relations must go through Pence. They’re muzzled.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#123

Post by cuspy »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #116
cuspy wrote: post #55

Given the track record of institutional science and the ever-growing list of regulatory failures, moral failures and outright abuses pushed in the guise of scientific expertise, why do so many people seem to think that simply doubling down and bullying the general population into compliance with expert consensus will ever work? What if institutional science in the US has a legitimacy crisis because it has failed to p…

Is there anything new here, though? Science is and always has been a human endeavor - it didn't arrive out of the sky delivered to us by gods or aliens. There have always been "regulatory failures (since we've had regulations, anyway), moral failures and outright abuses pushed in the guise of scientific expertise." this is nothing new.

Right, but what's your point? If it's an old problem we shouldn't try to address it? I think the evidence points to it getting worse and more importantly becoming more and more of a liability for our future ability to compete on the world stage.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#124

Post by AcerbicZero »

Honest question, why is democracy always the "flag" people wrap themselves in when defending these kinds of positions?

I get that democracy is somewhat better than feudalism, but at the end of the day I don't really care if the king is standing on my neck, or if its a mob of unruly peasants. Tyranny is tyranny, and democracy has demonstrated a great affinity for it when it suits the mob. Democracy seems to be the best of the bad options available, but without the strong protections afforded by an deep seated respect for individual liberty and freedom, there isn't much difference in end result.

If anything modern academia's treatment of "Science!" is a nice little peak under the covers of what happens when you let the mob make the rules - Thought becomes regimented to the point of absurdity and you either get on board, or get (thrown) over board.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#125

Post by tomp »

slg wrote: post #107
cuspy wrote: post #55

Given the track record of institutional science and the ever-growing list of regulatory failures, moral failures and outright abuses pushed in the guise of scientific expertise, why do so many people seem to think that simply doubling down and bullying the general population into compliance with expert consensus will ever work? What if institutional science in the US has a legitimacy crisis because it has failed to p…

>What if institutional science in the US has a legitimacy crisis because it has failed to police its own corruption and failed to address its own limitations and vulnerabilities? What if everyday people can see this more clearly than those striving on the margins of these institutions? You are giving the anti-science crowd a huge benefit of the doubt. I don't think people who believe the Earth is flat or that wearing…

> wearing a cloth mask can cause you to give yourself COVID is the result of a cogent analysis of the corruption of scientific institutions.

You’re kind-of proving the point. That’s exactly what WHO and some other “scientific” institutions (but really political institutions using science as a pretense) were saying at the beginning (that wearing masks could increase the risk because people would be touching their face more or something).

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#126

Post by Consultant32452 »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #114
Consultant32452 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One interesting thing to try to find is... during approximately what decade did "modern medicine" become a net benefit to health and longevity? The most common answers I've seen vary from the 1950s to we're not even 100% sure it's a net benefit now.

I think life expectancy started climbing up from 1850s, but it's hard to say which part of that is "medicine" and which is better nutrition and hygiene.

Anything like that has to be balanced against things like:

250k deaths caused by medical errors in the US each year

7-9k people die from medication errors

https://mymedicalscore.com/medical-error-statistics/

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#127

Post by cuspy »

ssivark wrote: post #105
cuspy wrote: post #55

Given the track record of institutional science and the ever-growing list of regulatory failures, moral failures and outright abuses pushed in the guise of scientific expertise, why do so many people seem to think that simply doubling down and bullying the general population into compliance with expert consensus will ever work? What if institutional science in the US has a legitimacy crisis because it has failed to p…

As a fellow scientist (also very enthusiastic about science), the problem is that some factions are trying to bully through what are actually policy positions in the name of “science”, thereby hurting the credibility of the institution of scientific truth seeking. Articles like this one are definitely only hurting, from the longer term perspective. Eg: However accurate/inaccurate/useful/useless epidemiology models mi…

I totally agree. I hope people like you will keep fighting for a vision like this. It's the only hope we have, and this problem is far more serious than most people are willing to admit. Unfortunately being outspoken about this viewpoint can be a big liability in a scientific career.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#128

Post by tomp »

cuspy wrote: post #55

Given the track record of institutional science and the ever-growing list of regulatory failures, moral failures and outright abuses pushed in the guise of scientific expertise, why do so many people seem to think that simply doubling down and bullying the general population into compliance with expert consensus will ever work? What if institutional science in the US has a legitimacy crisis because it has failed to p…

> overconfident scientists who can be bought off for nothing

Well, I wouldn’t call sex with underage girls on a private island nothing.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#129

Post by patagurbon »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #87
AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #68

Science is important. Science is great. I love science. Let's just be extremely careful when trying to apply the latest scientific achievements in our day to day lives. Phlogiston theory of 17th century was wrong. Race theory of 18th century was wrong. Semmelweis was laughed at in 19th century. And lobotomies were perfectly scientific for treating depressed patients for most of 20th century. I doubt 21st century's sc…

One interesting thing to try to find is... during approximately what decade did "modern medicine" become a net benefit to health and longevity? The most common answers I've seen vary from the 1950s to we're not even 100% sure it's a net benefit now.

Is it arguable that it wasn't a net benefit? You can argue specific cases maybe, but survival rates for the vast majority of diseases are better, longevity increased, and outcomes better for chronic illnesses.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#130

Post by patagurbon »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #126
AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think life expectancy started climbing up from 1850s, but it's hard to say which part of that is "medicine" and which is better nutrition and hygiene.

Anything like that has to be balanced against things like: 250k deaths caused by medical errors in the US each year 7-9k people die from medication errors https://mymedicalscore.com/medical-error-statistics/

What number of those would've died without care?
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