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Levandowski sentenced to 18 months in prison as new lawsuit against Uber filed

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Re: Levandowski sentenced to 18 months in prison as new lawsuit against Uber filed

#412
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll go ahead and keep calling them what everyone else does, thanks. A very pragmatic position. > I mean if it doesn't matter what gets invented... I think inventions matter. But I think our contributions are always marginal compared to what we build upon. If all of the people who say they won't create without monopoly profits stop creating, there will be more than enough people who continue to create that the worl…

> If all of the people who say they won't create without monopoly profits Trade secrets and monopoly profits are different things. The source code for your business' software is a trade secret, even if you don't have a monopoly. It would be untenable to produce software for profit if any of your employees could walk off with your source code after your investment and set up a competing business selling the same thing…

> It would be untenable to produce software for profit if any of your employees could walk off with your source code after your investment and set up a competing business selling the same thing at a cut rate.

You can still ask your employees to keep things secret, of course. Just without government as your enforcer. What would generally happen is you'd have to sweeten the terms of employment to make sure your people are happy. Profits for existing shareholders would drop, probably significantly, but the market would still churn out goods as before, and wages would rise.

> with the exception of a few programs

I would say at this point the majority of important software are not protected by trade secrets (TCP/IP, Linux Kernel, XNU Kernel, Git, DNS, SQLite, MySQL to name a few of many thousands). Tens of thousands of people are paid to work on these open source software products, and yet generally remain with their employers, even though they could "walk out the door" at any moment.

Secrets are fine. Government enforcement of secrets I find highly questionable, and only in the interests of the 1%.

Re: Levandowski sentenced to 18 months in prison as new lawsuit against Uber filed

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what happens if someone else independently invents the same things and protects them in a patent? Does SpaceX lose their technology?

So, given current US patent law, if SpaceX has some system/method/etc that is patentable material, but that they've chosen to retain as a trade secret, and someone else comes along and rediscovers the thing and patents it, then absolutely, SpaceX may then be in violation of that patent. That's because, as of 2011, the US (and basically the rest of the world) works on a first-to-file basis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

Interesting, thanks.

Do you think that documenting the tech and publishing a hash of the document would help? I've seen some services that offer to do this, but I'm not sure if this would work in a court of law.

Re: Levandowski sentenced to 18 months in prison as new lawsuit against Uber filed

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, given current US patent law, if SpaceX has some system/method/etc that is patentable material, but that they've chosen to retain as a trade secret, and someone else comes along and rediscovers the thing and patents it, then absolutely, SpaceX may then be in violation of that patent. That's because, as of 2011, the US (and basically the rest of the world) works on a first-to-file basis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

Interesting, thanks. Do you think that documenting the tech and publishing a hash of the document would help? I've seen some services that offer to do this, but I'm not sure if this would work in a court of law.

Likely not.

First off, some background. In order to prevent someone else from patenting your idea, absent being the first to file it yourself, you need to disclose it in such a way that it qualifies as "prior art", thereby rendering invalid any subsequent attempts to patent the invention.

Now, what does that disclosure look like? First, let's talk about the Enablement Requirement:

https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s2164.html

Quoting from that section: "The information contained in the disclosure of an application must be sufficient to inform those skilled in the relevant art how to both make and use the claimed invention."

This is a general requirement both for patents, and for relevant prior art. In particular, with respect to prior art specifically, if you look at 2121 part III of the Manual of Patent Examining Procedure (https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s2121.html ) you find the term "enabling disclosure":

"A prior art reference provides an enabling disclosure and thus anticipates a claimed invention if the reference describes the claimed invention in sufficient detail to enable a person of ordinary skill in the art to carry out the claimed invention"

There's also some rules about a POSITA being able to find the prior art. For example, with respect specifically to publications, in section 2128.2 of the manual (https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s2128.html) we find:

"'A reference is proven to be a "printed publication" "upon a satisfactory showing that such document has been disseminated or otherwise made available to the extent that persons interested and ordinarily skilled in the subject matter or art, exercising reasonable diligence, can locate it."'

So just writing down the invention and sticking it a drawer doesn't count! The inventor must have been able to find the prior art.

Anyway, this is all to say: Simply publishing a hash of a document to prove you have it is almost certainly not sufficient to invalidate a patent application, since such a disclosure clearly doesn't meet the Enablement Requirement for prior art, nor does it meet the requirement for being discoverable.

As a random aside: this touches on why the idea of defensive patenting or defensive publication exists. Suppose you come up with an invention where protection of the invention (either patent protection or trade secret) has no value to you, but where you want to avoid being sued by someone else in the case of independent invention.

In that case, it's not at all uncommon to file a patent application or otherwise disclose the invention in a notable publication (like, say, a journal) so as to prevent someone else from acquiring a patent on that invention. And note I say "application". You don't need to be granted the patent! The application is enough to qualify as prior art (and in fact it's not at all uncommon to see abandoned patent applications cited as prior art by patent examiners in patent prosecution wrappers, which are publicly available to anyone via the USPTO Public Pair system).

Re: Levandowski sentenced to 18 months in prison as new lawsuit against Uber filed

#415

Why is the government throwing people in jail for leaking trade secrets? Trade secrets aren't supposed to have government protection, that's the entire point: they're risky. If you want a monopoly on your technology, you're supposed to file a patent. Trade secrets were invented as a riskier way to extend your monopoly by giving up government protection. If the government is going to give trade secrets the same protec…

> Why is the government throwing people in jail for leaking trade secrets? > Trade secrets aren't supposed to have government protection, that's the entire point

Is it your theory that the US government is illegally imprisoning Levandowkski? That's an explosive claim, what do you have to back it up?

Re: Levandowski sentenced to 18 months in prison as new lawsuit against Uber filed

#416
post #50

This guy had such a sweet deal at Google originally, it staggers me that he'd go to these lengths to steal even more. He was getting a massive salarY, bonuses in the millions, and he had persuaded Google to pay him even more money through a side-hustle company of his while remaining an employee. Then he quits and steals their stuff.

>> This guy had such a sweet deal at Google originally, it staggers me that he'd go to these lengths to steal even more.

Not sure about this instance but in general, people dont get to some promontory then lose it all doing something illegal/unethical. They often rise up the ranks -- doing illegal/unethical things the entire way up. You just see the time they got caught (the last time) and it seems they could have stopped at step n-1.

Re: Levandowski sentenced to 18 months in prison as new lawsuit against Uber filed

#417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that in his case the bonus was paid based on Project Chauffeur hitting certain milestones. They retained him until the project hit the milestones, and then he left. Which is fair and square. And by the way, Chris Urmson and Sebastian Thrun did the same. It's just that Google did not understand the Goodhart law of self driving, which states that you can hit arbitrarily hard milestones and yet get nowhere near r…

I suspect we could generalise your law for all of AI work: you can solve arbitrarily hard tasks and yet be nowhere near real general intelligence.

This has traditionally been a problem on Wall Street also -- if your bonus is based on profit, traders maximize profit (but also risk.)

Then the company wizes up and the bonus is based on profit with a risk cap...and traders maximize profit and minimize some form of risk (while taking on some other unmeasured liability, e.g., liquidity)

Re: Levandowski sentenced to 18 months in prison as new lawsuit against Uber filed

#418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>bonuses in the millions Hundreds of millions. As part of breaching his employment agreement by stealing trade secrets, Levandowski had to pay back one of his bonuses, which was $120 million . I mean, part of paying this type of comp is to retain talent. How much more should Google have paid to retain him? Or was this even preventable?

>I mean, part of paying this type of comp is to retain talent. As with ever increasing CEO compensation, it has been frequently pointed out that this may be less an issue of performance and more a sort of internal cronyism with tightly connected people being excessively compensated. Given the mythology around tech founders/talent it's not surprising. As long as the companies grew it was fine, but I honestly think the…

Its not just about shareholders. You can better spread bonuses for overall happiness of employees and overall better productivity.

Re: Levandowski sentenced to 18 months in prison as new lawsuit against Uber filed

#419
post #45

I realize that he's an asshole and his behavior was pretty egregious but as engineers we should not be happy about the precedent that this sets.

What's the worrying precedent engineers should be unhappy about here?

I would suggest looking at this case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Aleynikov

Re: Levandowski sentenced to 18 months in prison as new lawsuit against Uber filed

#420
post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/91177/how-our-eyes-see-e... Until we can understand and correct unconcious inferences, how can we ever understand intelligence.

In the days when Sussman was a novice Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6. "What are you doing?", asked Minsky. "I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe." "Why is the net wired randomly?", asked Minsky. "I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play." Minsky shut his eyes. "Why do you close your eyes?", Sussman asked his teacher. "So the room will be empty." At th…

Please don't use code blocks for quotes. It makes it very hard to read text on mobile, narrow viewports or via screen readers.
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