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Ask HN: Design a government from scratch, how would it look?

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Re: Ask HN: Design a government from scratch, how would it look?

#21

Some groundwork: why do we have governments? To allow us to live in peace with people we've never met before, who we could otherwise kill, rape, and steal from, without consequences. It's a giant machine to enforce the golden rule, "treat others how you'd like to be treated". Of course, governments do a lot of extra things, but they're just that, extra. The socio-political landscape has changed a lot since the 1700's…

As a though exercise, how would you extend this to work across national boundaries without triggering the usual arguments against world government?

Re: Ask HN: Design a government from scratch, how would it look?

#22
post #21

Some groundwork: why do we have governments? To allow us to live in peace with people we've never met before, who we could otherwise kill, rape, and steal from, without consequences. It's a giant machine to enforce the golden rule, "treat others how you'd like to be treated". Of course, governments do a lot of extra things, but they're just that, extra. The socio-political landscape has changed a lot since the 1700's…

As a though exercise, how would you extend this to work across national boundaries without triggering the usual arguments against world government?

Another thought, who would stand to lose the most from implementing such a system, and how much power would they have to oppose it? How would you assuage or neutralize their objections?

Re: Ask HN: Design a government from scratch, how would it look?

#23
Algorithmic real-time, direct democracy doesn't remove human emotion from the equation. On the contrary, it makes it easy for key decisions to be made an emotive reaction to yellow journalism without those making the decision having any accountability or any penalty for failing to weight up the consequences.

Re: Ask HN: Design a government from scratch, how would it look?

#24
post #21

Some groundwork: why do we have governments? To allow us to live in peace with people we've never met before, who we could otherwise kill, rape, and steal from, without consequences. It's a giant machine to enforce the golden rule, "treat others how you'd like to be treated". Of course, governments do a lot of extra things, but they're just that, extra. The socio-political landscape has changed a lot since the 1700's…

As a though exercise, how would you extend this to work across national boundaries without triggering the usual arguments against world government?

I did a quick google search for "the usual arguments", and as far as I can see it boils down to three objections: loss of control, governments becoming out-of-touch with their populations, and having a single point of failure.

In regards to the single point of failure, I've got no real answer except that governments have scaled well so far. However, this answer doesn't deal with the fact that so far we've always had other governments to compare ourselves to, which keeps the population in a healthy state of mild envy.

Loss of control is a big issue, and not one that's going to go away any time soon. To take the extreme case, there is basically zero chance that any country currently under sharia law will adopt this form of government, because it gives human science the right to veto Mohammad's commands. Likewise, any attempt to join Canada and the USA will suffer from dissidents who don't like to give up their national character.

It is inevitable that large governments will be less attentive to the needs of individual communities, but not to the degree that it is often expected. The simple fact that 200 million + people can have one president indicates that social stability is more important that actually being able to make an impact on the people who rule the country.

I don't really feel like I've given a very good answer to your question. Perhaps the only route to world government is to start with a small country, demonstrate that it works better than the current forms of democracy, and aggressively support national revolutions during times of world turmoil. Because the fourth branch of government is based on independently verifiable science, it wouldn't be too difficult to set up an international confederation of government science. The social laws of different countries would tend to converge simply because everyone would be working from the same data and the same conclusions, and hopefully after fifty years or so the international confederation would collude to vote through policies of non-aggression in their respective countries.

So, yeah, the linchpin in the system - the property that allows it to work across national borders - is that government policies would be able to be verified and tested using internationally-standard science.

Re: Ask HN: Design a government from scratch, how would it look?

#26

Some groundwork: why do we have governments? To allow us to live in peace with people we've never met before, who we could otherwise kill, rape, and steal from, without consequences. It's a giant machine to enforce the golden rule, "treat others how you'd like to be treated". Of course, governments do a lot of extra things, but they're just that, extra. The socio-political landscape has changed a lot since the 1700's…

Your argument about not legislating morality is flawed. While the idea that you're trying to make may hold water, abortion is a flawed example.

Let's say that we're playing with the idea that abortion is murder. You say that government shouldn't be able to affect people having abortions because it is a matter of "personal conviction." However, murder denotes killing a living being and, as you stated above, governments exist to "to allow us to live in peace with people we've never met before..."

Now the question becomes is a fetus a living being? OR at what point does it become a living being? Someone needs to make these decisions and for lack of a better option, people turn to the government because if they think that the fetus is a living being then the government would need to protect it.

You have proven that government should absolutely be involved when someone wants to have an abortion because it is no longer a person's personal convictions if she is going to murder another person.

(Disclaimer: I'm not saying how I feel about the subject, just pointing out your arguments.)

Re: Ask HN: Design a government from scratch, how would it look?

#27
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think that Democracy is the best system? I think the reason why the 1st world nations are successful is not due to Democracy but due to capitalism. I realize that the two go hand in hand (capitalism/free market requires a hands off/light regulatory approach), something that so far only a Democracy has been able to deliver (although it will be interesting to see how the Chinese model evolves).

I would say first world nations are economically successful because their economies became diverse, i.e. a heavily distributed, highly concurrent and parallel system of systems. Given our current circumstances, it seems capitalism - i.e the central idea that a capitalist works for profit, etc - is now appearing to create economies which are now centralized around people/institutions which engage in nothing moving cap…

I agree that engaging in the movement of capital doesn't build any real value, however this applies to only certain sectors of the economy- if you look at places like Silicon Valley, we are creating value through the start up scene, and this is real value because it creates jobs and new ecosystems that fuel further growth.

I think you will begin seeing a trend away from the "no value creation" capitalism of the past 20 years- we're seeing people becoming more interested in physical inventions (see the popularity of the Make Fest and workshop clubs) and a rebirth of US industry (opportunities will open up as China and other "low-cost" centers see wage growth and people see other openings in fields such as shoe production, just to name one.).

Re: Ask HN: Design a government from scratch, how would it look?

#28
post #13

As much as there's ways that computing could be (and is unevenly) used to increase retail-level government, there are good reasons to continue to include human beings in the governing process. A few notions to look into: * Condorcet voting systems * Mechanism Design Theory * Parliamentary systems Finally, consider strongly the problem of the influence of capital on any system. In the US, there's the issue of campaign…

I suggest regulation not be monopolized, which mitigates the effects of a malicious regulator. Could you help me understand why maintaining a single point of failure is the only way to govern.

Re: Ask HN: Design a government from scratch, how would it look?

#29

Some groundwork: why do we have governments? To allow us to live in peace with people we've never met before, who we could otherwise kill, rape, and steal from, without consequences. It's a giant machine to enforce the golden rule, "treat others how you'd like to be treated". Of course, governments do a lot of extra things, but they're just that, extra. The socio-political landscape has changed a lot since the 1700's…

Your argument about not legislating morality is flawed. While the idea that you're trying to make may hold water, abortion is a flawed example. Let's say that we're playing with the idea that abortion is murder. You say that government shouldn't be able to affect people having abortions because it is a matter of "personal conviction." However, murder denotes killing a living being and, as you stated above, government…

Yeah, that's a good point actually. Perhaps I should be more direct and say that governments are trying to optimise happiness. In this case, abortion is less clear-cut because there is no good evidence that an unborn baby is conscious, or that it isn't. However, I agree with you that this isn't a good example, and someone has to decide when and if a fetus is a conscious, living being.

In a 'perfect' form of the government I described, this issue would be decided by the government based on hard science, so there would be some decision. But this still leaves the question of what position to take in the absence of any conclusive evidence.

To extend the flawed-ness: do you think this applies to issues such as homosexuality (to pick the most controversial)? Do you think that all morality should be legislated?

Re: Ask HN: Design a government from scratch, how would it look?

#30
post #28
post #13

As much as there's ways that computing could be (and is unevenly) used to increase retail-level government, there are good reasons to continue to include human beings in the governing process. A few notions to look into: * Condorcet voting systems * Mechanism Design Theory * Parliamentary systems Finally, consider strongly the problem of the influence of capital on any system. In the US, there's the issue of campaign…

I suggest regulation not be monopolized, which mitigates the effects of a malicious regulator. Could you help me understand why maintaining a single point of failure is the only way to govern.

There's two responses that spring immediately to mind:

First, "what time is it?" There's lots of cases where a single centralized authority can provide definite and concrete advantages.

Second, ultimately, every system of authority (and note that I'm using the word in a very different sense now) is built on a foundation of a threat of death. And that kernel should be held at as much of a remove, as carefully controlled as is possible. Introducing "failover" regulators means that you now have multiple parallel columns of authority, and each basic threat of death needs it's own system of control. That strikes me as nightmarish.

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