What Do Kids Say Is The Biggest Obstacle To Technology At School? • Hacker News Board

Re: What Do Kids Say Is The Biggest Obstacle To Technology At School?

#21

Post by guptaneil » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 4:31 AM UTC

onan_barbarian wrote: post #17

guptaneil wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.nd.edu/~cangst/NotreDame_iPad_Report_01-06-11.pdf http://robertkozma.com/images/kozma_jrte.pdf http://www.educause.edu/ELI7Things http://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/eval/tech/evidence-based-practic... http://www.ted.com/talks/sugata_mitra_the_child_driven_educa... Not formal studies but great anecdotes: http://www.fastcompany.com/1727292/apple-ipad-officially-pas... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1-8OOrBi0o&feat…

This appears to be a dump of randomly selected research papers, many of which don't measure anything remotely connected to outcomes. The standard practice seems to be to do a bunch of surveys afterwards to measure how awesome everyone thought everything had been. However, I did appreciate this bit from the ed.gov one: "An unexpected finding was the small number of rigorous published studies contrasting online and fac…

The data set is too small to achieve a conclusive outcome yet. As more classrooms experiment with these technologies, we'll get more insights. Until then, surveys are the best way to get an idea of how something is working for students.

As for the random dump of research papers, I tried originally offering a more succinct argument with an anecdote, but you wanted more evidence so I obliged.

Re: What Do Kids Say Is The Biggest Obstacle To Technology At School?

#22

Post by WalterBright » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 4:49 AM UTC

guptaneil wrote: post #20

onan_barbarian wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"However, a willing and interested student can learn so much more with newer, more powerful tools." This is complete bullshit. To stay within the grand-parent post's framework (although Knuth is perhaps a reach), you would reach a fixed point where adding nifty tech isn't going to make your experience studying Knuth that much more productive. It would be nice to have a decent laptop capable of running a compiler and…

Based on your logic, calculators shouldn't have ever been introduced in the classroom either because an abacus filled our needs. Or perhaps 128k of memory really was enough, since what possible use could we have for more memory or advanced technology if the status quo fills our current needs? We are just beginning to untap the possibilities of mobile devices in the classroom, and to completely dismiss them as "nifty…

Back in the olden daze, I was taught in college with nothing more than a prof and a blackboard, and I took notes. It works fine. I learned a helluva lot in a very short time.

The thing is, it takes work to learn something. You have to make an effort. Labor saving machinery doesn't help any more than using a motorcycle to train for a marathon.

As they say in athletics, no pain = no gain.

Re: What Do Kids Say Is The Biggest Obstacle To Technology At School?

#23

Post by onan_barbarian » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 4:49 AM UTC

guptaneil wrote: post #21

onan_barbarian wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This appears to be a dump of randomly selected research papers, many of which don't measure anything remotely connected to outcomes. The standard practice seems to be to do a bunch of surveys afterwards to measure how awesome everyone thought everything had been. However, I did appreciate this bit from the ed.gov one: "An unexpected finding was the small number of rigorous published studies contrasting online and fac…

The data set is too small to achieve a conclusive outcome yet. As more classrooms experiment with these technologies, we'll get more insights. Until then, surveys are the best way to get an idea of how something is working for students. As for the random dump of research papers, I tried originally offering a more succinct argument with an anecdote, but you wanted more evidence so I obliged.

From what I've seen, so far, when actual outcomes are measured for the whole 'computers in schools', rigorous studies tend to show negative or inconclusive effects.

I'm sure that surveys asking questions like "Was everything MOAR AWESUM in class today?" would have similarly suggested that everyone is more 'engaged' by the computers, but we don't go to school to be engaged, we go to school to learn. If we are 'engaged' by something irrelevant - for example, spending an hour dicking around with the fonts on a presentation - we might report wonderful levels of engagement while achieving zero outcomes.

Re: What Do Kids Say Is The Biggest Obstacle To Technology At School?

#24

Post by guptaneil » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 5:07 AM UTC

onan_barbarian wrote: post #23

guptaneil wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The data set is too small to achieve a conclusive outcome yet. As more classrooms experiment with these technologies, we'll get more insights. Until then, surveys are the best way to get an idea of how something is working for students. As for the random dump of research papers, I tried originally offering a more succinct argument with an anecdote, but you wanted more evidence so I obliged.

From what I've seen, so far, when actual outcomes are measured for the whole 'computers in schools', rigorous studies tend to show negative or inconclusive effects. I'm sure that surveys asking questions like "Was everything MOAR AWESUM in class today?" would have similarly suggested that everyone is more 'engaged' by the computers, but we don't go to school to be engaged, we go to school to learn. If we are 'engaged…

Do you have any studies that show these negative effects you keep mentioning? I'm curious to see why they failed. Obviously just tossing technology into a classroom won't do anything, which is what most schools with iPad programs are doing. It has to be adopted by the instructor and actually integrated into the learning process, which is a difficult thing to do.

I agree that surveys are not the most reliable or valid measure of success, but combined with the anecdotal evidence seen by the various experiments, there is a strong case to be made that technology has the potential to provide major positive changes once implemented properly. We have to start the search for the proper implementation somewhere.

Re: What Do Kids Say Is The Biggest Obstacle To Technology At School?

#25

Post by guptaneil » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 5:12 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #22

guptaneil wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on your logic, calculators shouldn't have ever been introduced in the classroom either because an abacus filled our needs. Or perhaps 128k of memory really was enough, since what possible use could we have for more memory or advanced technology if the status quo fills our current needs? We are just beginning to untap the possibilities of mobile devices in the classroom, and to completely dismiss them as "nifty…

Back in the olden daze, I was taught in college with nothing more than a prof and a blackboard, and I took notes. It works fine. I learned a helluva lot in a very short time. The thing is, it takes work to learn something. You have to make an effort. Labor saving machinery doesn't help any more than using a motorcycle to train for a marathon. As they say in athletics, no pain = no gain.

It worked fine for you, me, and the majority of HN. However, something clearly isn't working in the education system for the majority of students today, hence all the talk of "educational reform."

Nobody will disagree that it takes work to learn, and I am by no means proposing that technology is a magic bullet that will make learning easy all of a sudden. All I am suggesting is that technology can help make aspects of learning easier in order to allow students to focus on the more difficult aspects.

Just like athletes wear specialized gear to reduce unnecessary pain, we can use technology to reduce unnecessary work in the education system and focus on the actual learning.

Re: What Do Kids Say Is The Biggest Obstacle To Technology At School?

#26

Post by ctdonath » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 1:08 PM UTC

guptaneil wrote: post #25

WalterBright wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in the olden daze, I was taught in college with nothing more than a prof and a blackboard, and I took notes. It works fine. I learned a helluva lot in a very short time. The thing is, it takes work to learn something. You have to make an effort. Labor saving machinery doesn't help any more than using a motorcycle to train for a marathon. As they say in athletics, no pain = no gain.

It worked fine for you, me, and the majority of HN. However, something clearly isn't working in the education system for the majority of students today, hence all the talk of "educational reform." Nobody will disagree that it takes work to learn, and I am by no means proposing that technology is a magic bullet that will make learning easy all of a sudden. All I am suggesting is that technology can help make aspects o…

Yes, something is clearly not working in the education system: students are not learning "DO THE WORK". Sure nifty gadgets can help - but only if the student is going to do the work in the first place. I'm not talking about "difficult aspects", I'm talking about the very simplest of tasks, like starting an online at-your-convenience quiz, or handing in a homework assignment with no more content than "I'm confused". I'm talking about students who do so little that if you gave them 100% on everything they do submit they still won't break a 50%.

No amount of specialized gear will help an athlete if he won't move when the game begins.

Re: What Do Kids Say Is The Biggest Obstacle To Technology At School?

#27

Post by guptaneil » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 2:06 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #26

guptaneil wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It worked fine for you, me, and the majority of HN. However, something clearly isn't working in the education system for the majority of students today, hence all the talk of "educational reform." Nobody will disagree that it takes work to learn, and I am by no means proposing that technology is a magic bullet that will make learning easy all of a sudden. All I am suggesting is that technology can help make aspects o…

Yes, something is clearly not working in the education system: students are not learning "DO THE WORK". Sure nifty gadgets can help - but only if the student is going to do the work in the first place. I'm not talking about "difficult aspects", I'm talking about the very simplest of tasks, like starting an online at-your-convenience quiz, or handing in a homework assignment with no more content than "I'm confused". I…

So you're proposing that for those students who have not yet been motivated to work hard as a result of a broken system, we should just keep trying to force them through that system with no change? There are many, many reasons why the education system is not working, and there are many proposed solutions. No one solution is going to fix things, but they can contribute steps towards the overall solution. By dismissing all technology as nifty gadgets and refusing to even consider changing a broken system for a new generation, you're giving up before even trying.

One reason the educational system isn't working anymore is the behavioral changes in children that have been encouraged through cell phone and social networking usage. It's been shown that face-to-face discussion is intimidating and harmful to brainstorming or learning effectiveness [1]. This is why children and young adults prefer texting and communicating through Facebook over face-to-face socializing or even phone calls. Despite this fact, the size of classrooms continue to grow as we cram more and more students together to fight for the instructor's attention and to discuss topics in front of each other. Then we sit back and wonder, why students are intimidated and are unable to learn.

We have a classroom full of unengaged students staring blankly at an instructor, we know that they're intimidated to engage and ask questions in front of such a large group, and we know that they already have mobile devices on them that they are comfortable communicating and engaging with in large groups. But instead of taking advantage of those devices, you (and everybody else) seem to want to ignore everything and just keep trying to force students through a system that's not working for them anymore.

[1]: http://books.google.com/books?id=RNiFM9br5PwC&lpg=PP1&#3...