As a software developer I imagine the brain not as some separated layers but as a huge collection of routines/procedures, for this or that (including procedure for understanding numbers), interconnected with a spaghetti code of links. Many of these processes specialise in making decisions and calling other processes. One specialised procedure is called the consciousness, it is blind to the rest of the processes and i…
A man who can read letters but not numbers exposes roots of consciousness
211–220 of 224 posts
Re: A man who can read letters but not numbers exposes roots of consciousness
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
Okay, so intentionality is essential to information. Let's take your example of the pixels on your screen. There is nothing intrinsic to those pixels or that arrangement of pixels that points to the state of your brain. That doesn't mean there isn't a causal history the effect of which are those physical pixel states. It is, however, entirely a matter of convention how those pixels are arranged by the designers and h…
>Searle calls this derived intentionality which is different from intrinsic intentionality But what makes derived intentionality not abstract? What definition of abstract are you using that excludes derived intentionality while including intrinsic intentionality? But lets look more closely at the differences between derived and intrinsic intentionality. Derived intentionality is some relation that picks out a target…
W.r.t. derived intentionality, the relation that obtains here between a signifier and the signified is in the mind of the observer. When you read "banana", you know what I mean because the concept, in all its intrinstic intentionality and semantic content, already exists in your intellect and you have learned that that string of symbols is meant to refer to that concept. I could, however, take a non-English speaker and mischievously teach them that "banana" refers to what you and I would use the term "apple" to mean. No intrinsic relation exists between the signifier and the concept. However, there is an intrinsic relation that obtains between concepts and their instantiations. The concept "banana" is what it means to be a banana. So the derived intention involves two relations, namely, one between the signifier and the concept (which is a matter of arbitrary convention) and another relation between the concept and the signified, which necessarily obtains between the two. Derived intentionality is parasitic on intrinsic intentionality. The former requires the latter.
So what is meant when we say that computers do not possess concepts (i.e., abstract things), only derived intentionality, we mean that computers are, for all intents and purposes, syntactic machines composed of symbols and symbol manipulation rules (I would go further and say that what that describes are really abstract computing models like Turing machines, whereas physical computers are merely used to simulate these abstract machines).
Now, my whole point earlier was that if we presuppose a materialist metaphysical account of matter, we will be unable to account for intrinsic intentionality. This is a well known problem. And if we cannot account for intrinstic intentionality, then we certainly cannot make sense of derived intentionality.
Re: A man who can read letters but not numbers exposes roots of consciousness
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Searle calls this derived intentionality which is different from intrinsic intentionality But what makes derived intentionality not abstract? What definition of abstract are you using that excludes derived intentionality while including intrinsic intentionality? But lets look more closely at the differences between derived and intrinsic intentionality. Derived intentionality is some relation that picks out a target…
An essential feature of abstract things is that they do not exist independently and in their own right. For example, this chair or that man (whose name is John) are concrete objects. However, the concepts "chair" and "man" are abstract. They do not exist in themselves as such. The same can be said for something like "brown", an attribute that, let's say, is instantiated by both the chair and by John in some way, but…
Given this definition there are a universe of potential abstracta due to the many possible ways to categorize objects and their dynamics. Abstracta are essentially "objects of categorization" that relate different objects by their similarity along a particular set of dimensions. Chairs belong to the category "chair" due to sharing some particular set of features, for example. The abstract object (concept) here is chair, which is instantiated by every instance of chair; the relation between abstract and particular is two-way. Minds are relevant because they are the kinds of things that identify such categorizations of objects along a set of criteria, thus abstracta "exist in the intellect".
You know where else these abstracta exist? In unsupervised machine learning algorithms. An algorithm that automatically categorizes images based on whatever relevant features it discovers has the power of categorization which presumably is the characteristic property of abstracta. Thus the abstracta also exists within the computer system running the ML algorithm. But this abstracta seems to satisfy your criteria for intrinsic intentionality (if we don't beg the question against computer systems). The relation between the ML system and the abstracta are independent of a human to fix the reference. Yes, the algorithm was created by a person, but he did not specify what relations are formed and does not fix reference for the concepts discovered by the algorithm and the things in the world. This is analogous to evolution creating within us the capacity to independently discover abstract concepts.
(Just to preempt a reference to Searle's Chinese room argument, I believe his argument is fatally flawed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23182928)
Re: A man who can read letters but not numbers exposes roots of consciousness
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
> "Mind" vs. brain. For example, you will never observe the concept "triangularity" or the number 8 or the color "red" in a brain scan. Nor will you see Shape::TRIANGLE or the number 8 or Color::RED if you put a CPU under a microscope, but computer programs are capable of reasoning about all of them. What's your point?
Shape::TRIANGLE, 8 or Color::RED aren't concepts. They're merely symbols. In principle, you will find them encoded in some way under a microscope (as some arrangement of physical states, though it will depend on the particular physical medium what the particular arrangement will look like). Your computer program can process that physical state to mimic some aspects of reasoning, but that's entirely a matter of how th…
Re: A man who can read letters but not numbers exposes roots of consciousness
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sorry most of your argument here is going over my head. My mind gets the glazed over feel as soon as I hear the word “epistemology”. It seems like you are using the word “mind” as a specific technical word within the field of philosophy rather than the general usage of the word so I’ll just defer to you for any philosophical context of the conversation. I’m not interested in that. What got my goat was the implication…
> What got my goat was the implication that complex systems like the mind and the brain or any other complex system aren’t a “science” because it somehow isn’t pure enough/reduced enough. That wasn't the implication, but perhaps more needs to be said. The first distinction I made was between brain and "mind" (here understood as "intellect", that is, the faculty responsibly for conceptualization, or, abstraction from…
Now what you are saying makes more sense to me. I must not have read far enough up the comment chain to get the full context.
I guess I view the mind/intellect as a “state” of chemicals/electrical impulses/influences/etc that you could in theory take a snapshot of and is therefore material no matter how abstract the thought pattern. Trying to separate the brain vs. intellect is a false dichotomy from my perspective. I’m not sure if you are actually arguing for the Aristotelian perspective (as was my initial assumption) or if you are simply explaining a viewpoint.
I might note that I’m fascinated by super-determinism[0] with non-local variables right now. I can see that the repeatability of recording a given state of mind makes less sense since current QM theory could not guarantee that you could ever fully capture a given state of anything.
Re: A man who can read letters but not numbers exposes roots of consciousness
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
I hear what you're saying, but I'm still not sure that consciousness over a decision is what determines whether it was done of free will. Conscious or not, it was your brain making that decision. Not someone else telling your brain what to think. Your brain thought about it, considered the options, made a decision, and then informed your consciousness of it. That doesn't undermine the idea of free will, it just chang…
> Conscious or not, it was your brain making that decision. Not someone else telling your brain what to think. If you accept free will, there IS something else telling your brain what to think. Unless you explain what this something else might be, your hypothesis is not scientific. If you accept your brain, and your brain alone, makes the decision, then you accept that, given the condition of the brain before that de…
Re: A man who can read letters but not numbers exposes roots of consciousness
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
> What got my goat was the implication that complex systems like the mind and the brain or any other complex system aren’t a “science” because it somehow isn’t pure enough/reduced enough. That wasn't the implication, but perhaps more needs to be said. The first distinction I made was between brain and "mind" (here understood as "intellect", that is, the faculty responsibly for conceptualization, or, abstraction from…
> That wasn't the implication... appealing to a classic Aristotelian argument for the immateriality of the intellect Now what you are saying makes more sense to me. I must not have read far enough up the comment chain to get the full context. I guess I view the mind/intellect as a “state” of chemicals/electrical impulses/influences/etc that you could in theory take a snapshot of and is therefore material no matter ho…
> no matter how abstract the thought pattern
This needs to be explained. What exactly is a "thought pattern" and what does it mean for it to be abstract? As I've noted, matter is always concrete whereas abstract things aren't really things in that they cannot exist in their own right. You and I have the concept of "triangularity" in our intellects, and "triangularity" means exactly that and is therefore intelligible as "triangularity", but that concept is not reducible to any particular triangle. However, only particular triangles exist in the physical world. You would need to show how "triangularity" could exist as a concrete physical thing without also being a particular triangle. Then you'd have to show how concrete triangles instantiate this concrete "triangularity".
That's the Aristotelian angle. However, we can also approach this issue from the materialist angle. Take for instance the color red as we commonly understand it. Now, since Galileo and Descartes, matter has been construed as essentially colorless. Instead, matter has reflectance properties and color is construed as an artifact of the mind that in some unexplained way results from those reflectance properties, but is completely distinct from those reflectance properties. This is an essentially Cartesian view of the world wherein the universe is ultimately divided into two basic kinds of distinct things, namely, mental substance and extended substance, i.e., (a particular understanding of) mind and (a particular understanding of) matter, respectively. There are serious problems with Cartesian metaphysics, but for now, it's enough to observe that we moderns more or less hold to that view of matter. Now materialism also holds that view of matter. However, it denies the existence of mental substance leaving you with a broadly Cartesian view of matter. The trouble is that it is now impossible to explain things like the color red as mental phenomena as construed by Cartesians. This is known as the problem of qualia.
There are three directions you can take to try to preserve this view of matter and while accounting for qualia. One is to retreat back to Cartesian dualism. Another is to dabble with panpsychism (which is arguably just crypto-dualism). A third is to deny the existence of the very thing you were supposed to explain (eliminativism). Each of these has serious problems. However, a better option is to reconsider the metaphysics of matter. Aristotelian metaphysics does not suffer from these issues.
Re: A man who can read letters but not numbers exposes roots of consciousness
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
The poster you responding to is correct to a large extent. Yes, you can record waves, and you can even classify them like N170. Responses can be 'localized'; however, one has to be a bit careful. Even many researchers say it is new phrenology: for instance, William R. Uttal wrote a book on it, called "The New Phrenology. The limits of localizing cognitive processes in the Brain". This book is not based on philosophic…
>Just because localization is at most one can do, it is not cure to solve all puzzles/problems. But who is saying it does?
Re: A man who can read letters but not numbers exposes roots of consciousness
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
An essential feature of abstract things is that they do not exist independently and in their own right. For example, this chair or that man (whose name is John) are concrete objects. However, the concepts "chair" and "man" are abstract. They do not exist in themselves as such. The same can be said for something like "brown", an attribute that, let's say, is instantiated by both the chair and by John in some way, but…
Your description of abstract things sounds like a dressed-up version of something fairly mundane. (This isn't to say that your description is deficient, but rather that the concept is ultimately fairly mundane.) So I gathered three essential features of instrinsic intentionality: (1) does not exist independently, (2) exist in the intellect, (3) exist in the things that instantiate them. Given this definition there ar…
Say I give you an image of a black isosceles triangle. Nothing in that image will tell you how to group those features. There is no single interpretation, so single way to classify the image. You might design your algorithm to prefer certain ways of grouping them, but that follows from the designer's prior understanding of what he's looking at and how he wants his algorithm to classify things. If your model has been trained using only black isosceles triangles and red rhombuses, it is possible that it would classify a red right triangle as rhombus or an entirely different thing and there would be no reason in principle to say that the classification was objectively wrong apart from the objective measure of triangularity itself. But that's precisely what the algorithm/model lack in the first place and cannot attain in the second.
Furthermore, just because your ML algorithm has grouped something successfully by your measure of correctness doesn't mean it's grasped essentially what it means to be a member of that class. The grouping is always incidental no matter how much refinement goes into it.
Now, you might be tempted to say that human brains and minds are no different because evolution has done to human brains what human brains do to computer algorithms and models. But that is tantamount not only to denying the existence of abstract concepts in computers, but also their existence in human minds. You've effectively banished abstracta from existence which is exactly what materialism is forced to do.
(With physical computers, things actually get worse because computers aren't objectively computing anything. There is no fact of the matter beyond the physical processes that go on in a particular computer. Computation in physical artifacts is observer relative. I can choose to interpret what a physical computer does through the lens of computation, but there is nothing in the computer itself that is objectively computation. Kripke's plus/quus paradox demonstrates this nicely.)
P.S. An article you might find interesting in this vein, also from Feser: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4SjM0oabZazckZnWlE1Q3FtdGs...
Re: A man who can read letters but not numbers exposes roots of consciousness
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
Shape::TRIANGLE, 8 or Color::RED aren't concepts. They're merely symbols. In principle, you will find them encoded in some way under a microscope (as some arrangement of physical states, though it will depend on the particular physical medium what the particular arrangement will look like). Your computer program can process that physical state to mimic some aspects of reasoning, but that's entirely a matter of how th…
How would you define a “concept” then? How do concepts themselves intrinsically have meaning that symbols don’t?