What Do Kids Say Is The Biggest Obstacle To Technology At School? • Hacker News Board

Re: What Do Kids Say Is The Biggest Obstacle To Technology At School?

#11

Post by onan_barbarian » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 3:18 AM UTC

guptaneil wrote: post #9

onan_barbarian wrote: post #4

This is a baffling question to be asking, given that the evidence that computers are a wonderful aid to learning is scant. Making it easier to putz around on cellphones at school hardly sounds like a educational advance.

Actually, there is significant evidence that integrating mobile technology into the classroom does in fact aid learning, but only of the instructor is will to embrace the technology instead of fight it. Unfortunately, most instructors don't feel comfortable changing their teaching methods, so technology is seen as having no impact. Here's one article about one professor's experience with integrating Twitter into the…

Significant evidence != an article about some dude using Twitter in the classroom. The plural of blogpost isn't 'data', just like the plural of anecdote isn't data.

Do you have a _study_? You know, one of those strange things where two different approaches go through this bizarre process of comparison.

So far most of the evidence for tech in the classroom is either inconclusive or tends to connect it with negative outcomes.

Re: What Do Kids Say Is The Biggest Obstacle To Technology At School?

#12

Post by pdaviesa » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 3:19 AM UTC

I have many friends and family members who are in k-12 education (mostly teachers but some administrators and executives). Their edu experience ranges from 10-40 years in different socio-economic districts. Every one of them says the single largest factor in determining the success of a student is parental involvement. It doesn't matter if you give a kid the latest smart phone/iPad/laptop if that kid gets home and is never asked about what they're learning in school, how their homework is coming along, when parent/teacher conferences are scheduled, etc. I think it's high time we find a way to motivate parents across the board to take a more proactive role with their children's education (perhaps using some of the state education money per child as a monetary incentive for parents who meet certain "involvement" milestones).

Re: What Do Kids Say Is The Biggest Obstacle To Technology At School?

#13

Post by onan_barbarian » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 3:24 AM UTC

guptaneil wrote: post #10

ctdonath wrote: post #6

Asking students what they think they need to learn? Problem is, they don't know - so they answer with whatever is the niftyest gizmo they adhere to. The real answer is: they need to learn to DO THE WORK with whatever tools they have. I teach introductory programming, and the biggest problem students have is lack of inclination to simply perform and submit assignments (about 1/3rd suffer this affliction); it is not fo…

> An old copy of Knuth's "Art of Computer Programming" and a willing student will make a far more talented engineer than giving a disinterested student an iPad with anywhere/anytime access to the totality of human knowledge (including Angry Birds). Likewise, a willing student with an iPad is going to have the potential to learn so much more than a disinterested student with a textbook. If a student is disinterested a…

"However, a willing and interested student can learn so much more with newer, more powerful tools."

This is complete bullshit. To stay within the grand-parent post's framework (although Knuth is perhaps a reach), you would reach a fixed point where adding nifty tech isn't going to make your experience studying Knuth that much more productive. It would be nice to have a decent laptop capable of running a compiler and whatever IDE or not-so-integrated environment you prefer; a well configured device from the last 5 years would be fine. An iPad isn't going to solve any problems here.

Lazy students are lazy because they don't want to think hard, solve problems and learn. This is largely a constant and is not going to be affected by being given a iPad.

To quote Jack Vance (why not?): "Whatever you have heard about me, dismiss it. I do not regard my class as a confrontation between the clear light of my intellect and twenty-two examples of sloth and willful stupidity. The exact number may be only half that, if we are lucky, and of course varies from term to term."

Re: What Do Kids Say Is The Biggest Obstacle To Technology At School?

#14

Post by DannoHung » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 3:35 AM UTC

The biggest obstacle is that the lessons don't integrate technology. The technology is expected to graft onto the existing lessons and make it better in a vague and nebulous way.

As ctdonath's post indicates: The old lessons work just as well given a text book and paper. The new lessons, one that could not be performed without the technology have not been developed yet.

I mean, this is a bit like complaining that the socratic method is not enhanced by pencil and paper.

Re: What Do Kids Say Is The Biggest Obstacle To Technology At School?

#15

Post by quacker » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 3:38 AM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #6

Asking students what they think they need to learn? Problem is, they don't know - so they answer with whatever is the niftyest gizmo they adhere to. The real answer is: they need to learn to DO THE WORK with whatever tools they have. I teach introductory programming, and the biggest problem students have is lack of inclination to simply perform and submit assignments (about 1/3rd suffer this affliction); it is not fo…

"Asking students what they think they need to learn? Problem is, they don't know..." This is typical of a teacher giving his or her students too little credit. While this may be true of elementary- and perhaps middle-schoolers, I'd say most high school students know what helps them learn. I knew what kinds of books, teachers, writing utensils, memorization techniques and the like that I preferred, and the same was true of just about everyone around me. Similarly, I also knew what failed to help me. There was a girl in one of my classes who always quietly hummed behind me some jingle she had created to help her remember something for that test, but I never liked using songs to memorize important facts. I did something kind of like the memory palace technique (but I didn't know it had a name at the time). There were also plenty of assignments the teachers gave and tools/methods they tried to use that they thought - not without reason - would work. But they often confused me much more than taught me anything.

"it is not for lack of understanding, but for lack of action" I agree with this. A huge mistake of many of my teachers is that they assumed some students were dumb or lazy and missed the fact that students simply don't care about some (or all) of the classes they have to take, and teachers that focused on getting students interested in the material were generally more successful than the ones who complained about kids' poor attitudes (not that a bad attitude isn't an issue, and not that it's all on the teacher to do something about it). But then came the "action" part - get kids to do something "right." I hated teachers that tried to force their study habits on me. Many teachers would check and grade our notes to see that we were taking them "properly." Others might make us go step-by-step through some writing process that is "guaranteed to make you a successful writer." While good note-taking and writing skills should definitely be taught at some point, the level of detail enforced was absurd, and single methods cannot work for every student.

I know teachers have hard jobs, and I don't claim to know everything. The point is just to give the students some credit. They aren't stupid, and they're all different. If you listen to them, they'll like you better for it. If you don't listen to them, you will never seriously consider some little idea they say that might work wonders for them. But don't get me wrong about the article. This survey says nothing about a correlation between access to technology and success in school/life, and I really doubt smartphones and iPads will help students more than distract them. However, there is merit taking their opinions into account. And there is merit in using the available resources to their full advantage. Considering that mobile devices will become ever more prevalent and powerful in the future, it's a good idea to begin determining their potential in the classroom.

Re: What Do Kids Say Is The Biggest Obstacle To Technology At School?

#16

Post by guptaneil » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 3:43 AM UTC

onan_barbarian wrote: post #11

guptaneil wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, there is significant evidence that integrating mobile technology into the classroom does in fact aid learning, but only of the instructor is will to embrace the technology instead of fight it. Unfortunately, most instructors don't feel comfortable changing their teaching methods, so technology is seen as having no impact. Here's one article about one professor's experience with integrating Twitter into the…

Significant evidence != an article about some dude using Twitter in the classroom. The plural of blogpost isn't 'data', just like the plural of anecdote isn't data. Do you have a _study_? You know, one of those strange things where two different approaches go through this bizarre process of comparison. So far most of the evidence for tech in the classroom is either inconclusive or tends to connect it with negative ou…

http://www.nd.edu/~cangst/NotreDame_iPad_Report_01-06-11.pdf

http://robertkozma.com/images/kozma_jrte.pdf

http://www.educause.edu/ELI7Things

http://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/eval/tech/evidence-based-practic...

http://www.ted.com/talks/sugata_mitra_the_child_driven_educa...

Not formal studies but great anecdotes:

http://www.fastcompany.com/1727292/apple-ipad-officially-pas...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1-8OOrBi0o&feature=playe...

Anything on http://speirs.org/

And of course, there's always the success of Khan Academy.

There are many, many more studies and anecdotes available, but these are the ones I either had bookmarked or could remember off the top of my head.

You're right that there's no absolutely conclusive and irrefutable study about tech in classroom because nobody has undertaken such a bold experiment. However, all of the evidence is there and points to the potential of adopting newer tools in classrooms. Unfortunately, people who blindly dismiss all applications of technology in the classroom have slowed farther, more informative studies from being conducted.

Re: What Do Kids Say Is The Biggest Obstacle To Technology At School?

#17

Post by onan_barbarian » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 3:52 AM UTC

guptaneil wrote: post #16

onan_barbarian wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Significant evidence != an article about some dude using Twitter in the classroom. The plural of blogpost isn't 'data', just like the plural of anecdote isn't data. Do you have a _study_? You know, one of those strange things where two different approaches go through this bizarre process of comparison. So far most of the evidence for tech in the classroom is either inconclusive or tends to connect it with negative ou…

http://www.nd.edu/~cangst/NotreDame_iPad_Report_01-06-11.pdf http://robertkozma.com/images/kozma_jrte.pdf http://www.educause.edu/ELI7Things http://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/eval/tech/evidence-based-practic... http://www.ted.com/talks/sugata_mitra_the_child_driven_educa... Not formal studies but great anecdotes: http://www.fastcompany.com/1727292/apple-ipad-officially-pas... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1-8OOrBi0o&feat…

This appears to be a dump of randomly selected research papers, many of which don't measure anything remotely connected to outcomes. The standard practice seems to be to do a bunch of surveys afterwards to measure how awesome everyone thought everything had been.

However, I did appreciate this bit from the ed.gov one:

"An unexpected finding was the small number of rigorous published studies contrasting online and face-to-face learning conditions for K–12 students."

No shit.

Re: What Do Kids Say Is The Biggest Obstacle To Technology At School?

#18

Post by pflats » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 3:53 AM UTC

As a teacher, I'm not quite sure what the survey is really reaching for. The kids bring their own technology into school, so that they can use it, and... what? Browse the internet for scholarly sources on a 4 inch screen?

There's not a lot of technology that truly enhances education. LCD projectors make a huge difference. Document cameras (if you haven't seen one, it's essentially a webcam on an arm with VGA out) are wonderful, they let you put any student work, textbook, etc. on display. Online books and online "flash card" sites are also useful. The thing is, though, almost all of these are just improvements on technology that's been around for decades. A LCD projector with document camera is an overhead projector where you can be spontaneous rather than rely on transparencies. There's lots of other cool stuff - student response systems, wireless networking for TI calculators, Geometer's Sketchpad - I could go on. I've even friended problem students on xbox live for the explicit purpose needling them on their time playing call of duty instead of doing their homework.

The thing is, though, none of this requires a student's cell phone. There is no killer app (that I'm aware of). Instead, the cell phone is a major disciplinary issue. Teachers and administrators are wary for a reason: students are irresponsible with the devices, and presently, they cause more problems then they solve.

Re: What Do Kids Say Is The Biggest Obstacle To Technology At School?

#19

Post by pflats » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 4:02 AM UTC

DannoHung wrote: post #14

The biggest obstacle is that the lessons don't integrate technology. The technology is expected to graft onto the existing lessons and make it better in a vague and nebulous way. As ctdonath's post indicates: The old lessons work just as well given a text book and paper. The new lessons, one that could not be performed without the technology have not been developed yet. I mean, this is a bit like complaining that the…

Agreed entirely. My best lessons, ones that integrate technology and really engage the students who don't usually care, take hours to plan, test, iterate and improve.

Some days, I think about trying to make a company dedicated to period-long drop-in replacement lessons. I'm just not quite sure the market is there.

Re: What Do Kids Say Is The Biggest Obstacle To Technology At School?

#20

Post by guptaneil » Mon, Apr 04, 2011, 4:25 AM UTC

onan_barbarian wrote: post #13

guptaneil wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An old copy of Knuth's "Art of Computer Programming" and a willing student will make a far more talented engineer than giving a disinterested student an iPad with anywhere/anytime access to the totality of human knowledge (including Angry Birds). Likewise, a willing student with an iPad is going to have the potential to learn so much more than a disinterested student with a textbook. If a student is disinterested a…

"However, a willing and interested student can learn so much more with newer, more powerful tools." This is complete bullshit. To stay within the grand-parent post's framework (although Knuth is perhaps a reach), you would reach a fixed point where adding nifty tech isn't going to make your experience studying Knuth that much more productive. It would be nice to have a decent laptop capable of running a compiler and…

Based on your logic, calculators shouldn't have ever been introduced in the classroom either because an abacus filled our needs. Or perhaps 128k of memory really was enough, since what possible use could we have for more memory or advanced technology if the status quo fills our current needs?

We are just beginning to untap the possibilities of mobile devices in the classroom, and to completely dismiss them as "nifty tech" is very short sighted. People tried to do the same ten years ago when laptops started appearing in classrooms. Had they succeeded, companies like Google would not even exist today.

We are seeing many interesting uses of mobile devices in education now that the devices are finally appearing in classrooms. However, until they become more ubiquitous and accepted, it will be impossible to fully demonstrate how much they can impact education.

Having spoken to professors who have personally experimented with iPads in classrooms, I can tell you it makes a day and night difference just in student engagement when they are given a textbook to study from versus being encouraged to explore a topic and discuss it using mobile devices like the iPad. I've observed biology classes where roughly half of the students used an iPad. These students consistently participated more than the other students. There are several reasons for this behavioral change, but I think the most important one is the design of the device and OS. It focuses on the single task at hand. When an app becomes the whole device and actually discourages multitasking, students pay attention more compared to their distracting laptop screens. Compared to laptop users, they also benefitted from a lack of a physical barrier from the laptop screen between the student and instructor. Those students that had no electronic device and just depended on the textbook generally participated the least and seemed least interested. It will be interesting to see how these devices continue to change how classrooms operate as more and more schools open up to the idea.

Keep in mind that the target audience is not tech savvy nerds, but the typical student, who for the most part is still afraid of using traditional laptops. These students, however, live off of their cell phones, so why not take advantage of an environment they are already comfortable in to encourage learning instead of forcing them into a foreign environment?