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Making Advanced GUI Applications with Godot

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Re: Making Advanced GUI Applications with Godot

#211

Post by walski »

josephg wrote: post #210
jfkebwjsbx wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is FUD unless you source your claims. - Almost no one does accessibility properly in web apps. Even native apps get it wrong more often than not. - Using Electron does not give you accessibility in any way. - What laws? I use everyday general purpose commercial applications, both webapps and native apps, with glaring accessibility flaws and I do not see anybody caring to sue. - I don't know of any business doing…

> - Almost no one does accessibility properly in web apps. Screen readers can still (badly) work on web sites that haven't been made with accessibility in mind. And if you find you need to add proper accessibility to a web or native app, you can. With something like godot, you might have to rewrite the entire GUI to get accessibility working properly. > - Using Electron does not give you accessibility in any way. Yes…

The cited laws only cover public bodies, though. They are not applicable to websites or applications built in the private sector.

Re: Making Advanced GUI Applications with Godot

#212

Post by mwcampbell »

dilandau wrote: post #171
miki123211 wrote: post #162

If you want to use this in a business, either for an internal tool or for an application you sell, this is a horrible idea. Godot doesn't display native widgets, so it has no support for accessibility, for example to screen readers and blind users. Some people think blind people bring too little profit to care, but this is wrong for one single reason. There are some laws mandating accessibility, and more laws are bei…

It's easier to pull out a soapbox and make ridiculous speeches like these, than to actually make a gui application. If you're making something for free or for fun, then let curiosity guide you. Bureaucrats like yourself can comment all you want. I'll be making applications.

He's not a bureaucrat. He's a blind person who, I'm sure, has been frustrated many times at the inaccessibility of an application that he needed or wanted to use. So go ahead and make your applications, but please try not to block people who need and want to use them.

Re: Making Advanced GUI Applications with Godot

#213

Post by josephg »

walski wrote: post #211
josephg wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Almost no one does accessibility properly in web apps. Screen readers can still (badly) work on web sites that haven't been made with accessibility in mind. And if you find you need to add proper accessibility to a web or native app, you can. With something like godot, you might have to rewrite the entire GUI to get accessibility working properly. > - Using Electron does not give you accessibility in any way. Yes…

The cited laws only cover public bodies, though. They are not applicable to websites or applications built in the private sector.

Yes; for now.

If you're in the public sector, or have customers in the EU or Australia, you might get sued or fined if your app isn't accessible.

Weirdly even in the US you might not be in the clear for internal tooling. My understanding is its illegal to refuse to hire a blind person because they're blind. If you hire someone who's blind and they can't do their job because your internal tools are written in Godot, you might be leaving yourself open to discrimination suits. Not a big deal when you're a startup, but it will matter at google / fb / etc. I'm sure google has blind employees today who care a great deal about being able to do their jobs.

That sounds like a legal minefield, with more mines added over time.

In short, if you aren't making a video game or a toy, it seems like good advice to use tools that work with accessibility.

(I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.)

Re: Making Advanced GUI Applications with Godot

#214

Post by userbinator »

jcelerier wrote: post #145
userbinator wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's odd to see the "just 20MB" phrasing. I guess even native applications have expanded to the point where 20MB seems small, but in absolute terms I still consider that quite large --- to put things into perspective, a full installation of Windows 3.11 , the OS with all of its included applications, is less than 20MB. I wonder if, in another 20 years, we may see people speaking of "just 20GB"...

> but in absolute terms I still consider that quite large --- to put things into perspective, a full installation of Windows 3.11, the OS with all of its included applications, is less than 20MB. that really depends on the application though. say you want to make a media player, you likely want to embed FFMPEG and that alone will be heavier than windows 3.11 because there are so many codecs today. Likewise for an ima…

you likely want to embed FFMPEG and that alone will be heavier than windows 3.11 because there are so many codecs today. Likewise for an image editor, you're gonna have to pack a whole lot of image format encoders / decoders.

As someone who has written some video and image decoders --- 20MB is still very large. Minimal-complexity H.261 through H.263 decoders are in the "dozens of KB" range, and optimisations in Asm are unlikely to make them that much bigger. ffdshow, an all-in-one codec that can decode and encode a few dozen formats, is 2MB and that not only includes code that does the real work, but also the COM-based bloat of the DirectShow API it uses. A GIF decoder is a few KB. JPEG is also roughly the same, maybe slightly bigger, and PNG is around that size too.

Also note that Qt can basically run as-is on top of a linux kernel, directly rendering to the framebuffer and doing everything itself

So does Windows (on top of DOS.)

Re: Making Advanced GUI Applications with Godot

#215

Post by bmn__ »

einpoklum wrote: post #122
stu2b50 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unfortunate that traditional desktop GUI frameworks are such an abysmal developer experience that everything from FOSS made by 1 person in their spare time to the cornerstone of multi-billion dollar companies choose to embed a web browser into their desktop app instead. Qt is the best I've seen, but it has the normal c++ FUD plus the infamous licensing FUD. And honestly, I'll have to admit that how react models…

> Qt is the best I've seen, but it has the normal c++ FUD Not sure what you mean exactly; C++ is complex, but why the fear and doubt? Also - Qt is based on veeery old C++ - a 22-year-old standard. The language has changed significantly since then, while Qt's fundamental design (in terms of programming) - not really, or not much. So, Qt is not "normal C++" these days.

Simply add https://github.com/woboq/verdigris so you can use C++ ≥ 14.

Re: Making Advanced GUI Applications with Godot

#216

Post by adamsea »

ausjke wrote: post #205
bananaface wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harvard & MIT were sued for putting up free lectures, because they didn't have captions[1]. Harvard eventually settled[2], not sure about MIT. I believe MIT's response was actually to pull a lot of the lectures, but I don't know if that stuck. In that case the main complaint seemed to be that they had more of an obligation because they were receiving federal funding. 1: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/13/education/ha…

this is how things work these days, for the sake of equality, minority overrule majority everywhere, i.e. if something makes a small percentage of people unhappy, then it is too unfair, the solution to play it safe, is that let's get rid it of for all.

Are you complaining that the United States has laws to make sure organizations don’t simply choose to ignore the needs of blind people, deaf people, and other people with disabilities?

Re: Making Advanced GUI Applications with Godot

#217

Post by divan »

miki123211 wrote: post #162

If you want to use this in a business, either for an internal tool or for an application you sell, this is a horrible idea. Godot doesn't display native widgets, so it has no support for accessibility, for example to screen readers and blind users. Some people think blind people bring too little profit to care, but this is wrong for one single reason. There are some laws mandating accessibility, and more laws are bei…

But HTML/CSS/JS is horrible experience even for non blind people :(

I haven't learn much about Godot yet (but I will after this post), but Flutter solved accessibility in declarative widget UIs in a way that might be a good example for others.

Re: Making Advanced GUI Applications with Godot

#218

Post by bananaface »

adamsea wrote: post #216
ausjke wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is how things work these days, for the sake of equality, minority overrule majority everywhere, i.e. if something makes a small percentage of people unhappy, then it is too unfair, the solution to play it safe, is that let's get rid it of for all.

Are you complaining that the United States has laws to make sure organizations don’t simply choose to ignore the needs of blind people, deaf people, and other people with disabilities?

Not the person you replied to, but I do think it's ridiculous that they were able to sue them over free content. All it did was put up barriers against dissemination. I know at least one institution removed lectures because of it. Those courses are just... Gone now. Poof.

Re: Making Advanced GUI Applications with Godot

#219

Post by divan »

krn wrote: post #170
miki123211 wrote: post #162

If you want to use this in a business, either for an internal tool or for an application you sell, this is a horrible idea. Godot doesn't display native widgets, so it has no support for accessibility, for example to screen readers and blind users. Some people think blind people bring too little profit to care, but this is wrong for one single reason. There are some laws mandating accessibility, and more laws are bei…

> Godot doesn't display native widgets, so it has no support for accessibility, for example to screen readers and blind users. Isn't this also the case with Google's Flutter on iOS by default?

Flutter has Semantics concept baked in from the very beginning. https://flutter.dev/docs/development/accessibility-and-local...

Re: Making Advanced GUI Applications with Godot

#220

Post by gridlockd »

bitwize wrote: post #209
gridlockd wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you speaking out of professional experience? Do you know of cases where not implementing accessibility really did become a big financial hazard? Imagine the headline "company goes bust due to regulatory violations after hiring blind person". That would basically be sending the message "never hire a blind person", because no company can ever be sure to be in compliance.

See, in the USA we have this thing called the Americans with Disabilities Act, under which providing accessibility options for people with disabilities to access your goods and services is required in order to do business.

The ADA refers to "public accommodations", which in some cases can include websites. It does not include every single piece of commercial software.
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