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The best Parts of Visual Studio Code are proprietary

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Re: The best Parts of Visual Studio Code are proprietary

#161

Post by kls »

CiTyBear wrote: post #14
sudhirj wrote: post #3

Yes and no. The complaint is that some widely used extensions are proprietary. If these extensions require MS servers, then they have every reason to be. Even if they don't, there's nothing wrong with a company holding back some stuff they consider strategic, they're not obligated to release them. If we're debating the OSS credentials of VSCode, it'll need to be based on the code already released (which makes it a pr…

I don't think it says "Software not open-source is bad". But more something like "It is marketed as open source but it is not". Developers should be aware that VSCode is not as open source as it claims it is. In my circles, developers could swear VSCode is fully open source without even knowing VSCodium. If people were more aware about this, they might think twice before using VSCode for everything and getting lock-i…

Given the fact that you have to download both extensions separately and intentionally from the VS Code binary. I would say that VS Code does indeed meet the technical definition and spirit of open source. I don't know a major open source IDE that does not have closed source and/or paid extensions that you can purchase/download. I find this argument kind of strange, neither of these extensions are part of VSCode proper, sure they are nice but to ding the base editor because MS did not hand these out is a bit of a stretch.

Re: The best Parts of Visual Studio Code are proprietary

#162

Post by untog »

skohan wrote: post #113
chriswwweb wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I'm aware of, Microsoft is not even trying to put their own services forward. For example neither Github nor Azure are the defaults in VSCode. Go to the source control section and use what ever source control tool you want, VSCode does not even suggest you use Github. They also don't bundle extensions like LiveShare with VSCode, by including it into the VSCode installer they distribute on their own website.…

> but I dislike it when people are so desperate to blame Microsoft for mistakes it did in the past I find it a bit weird when people anthropomorphize corporations and feel bad for/protective of them. And let's be honest, we're not talking about "mistakes", we're talking about a decades-long strategy which was methodically executed to cultivate good will, and then take advantage of it to destroy competitors.

Conversely, I find it a bit weird when people anthropomorphize corporations as if they have personalities and traits that somehow live beyond an almost 100% turnover in staff and senior management changes.

The MS of today isn’t the MS of the 90s. That’s not to say they’re virtuous and wonderful today, just that banging on about the past doesn’t really feel relevant.

Re: The best Parts of Visual Studio Code are proprietary

#163

Post by wolco »

skrebbel wrote: post #17
skohan wrote: post #7

I can be counted as one of the skeptics of MS's open-source efforts. It just seems to me that MS's history and recent investment in open-source puts us in a quantum state between two possibilities: 1. MS has changed their ways, and has become an altruist organization which just wants to give developers things of value for free so they might hopefully choose Azure when they decide what cloud provider to run on. 2. MS…

How is Sublime Text more open? It's closed source.

Version 2 is open. Download and enjoy.

Re: The best Parts of Visual Studio Code are proprietary

#164

Post by wolco »

simion314 wrote: post #120
neutronicus wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, FSF is about freedom for users with the technical expertise to modify the software and understand its source code.

>Well, FSF is about freedom for users with the technical expertise to modify the software and understand its source code. FALSE, example some guy pays me to modify a GPL script/program and add some integration for his business. If I am a jerk I don't give him the source code only an obfuscated binary. This guy is not an expert but if I would have respected the license and give him the source code then he can in futur…

Legally he could sue when the next developer asks for it.

Re: The best Parts of Visual Studio Code are proprietary

#165

Post by kls »

skohan wrote: post #37
CiTyBear wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it says "Software not open-source is bad". But more something like "It is marketed as open source but it is not". Developers should be aware that VSCode is not as open source as it claims it is. In my circles, developers could swear VSCode is fully open source without even knowing VSCodium. If people were more aware about this, they might think twice before using VSCode for everything and getting lock-i…

Yes this is exactly the risk: developers become dependent on the VSCode extension ecosystem, while thinking they are safely using only FOSS tools. This is the kind of double-speak which lets MS have the best of both worlds. From a marketing/developer relations perspective, developers think they are using open-source tools. But in actuality, developers are investing in workflows where MS is a critical link in the chai…

I really don't understand this, when I use a library in my codebase I make sure I understand the licencing implications of using said library. When I add an extension to my IDE, I make sure I understand the licencing implications. If I add and extension to my IDE, I have modified my IDE beyond the base IDE, I should very well know the implications of doing so. It is no big secret that these two extensions are not FOSS tools. Some people care, some people don't but if a developer is blindly adding stuff to their IDE without knowing the ramifications, I would certainly question their judgment and I would certainly question their judgment if they are under the assumption that every extension out there is FOSS.

Re: The best Parts of Visual Studio Code are proprietary

#166

Post by edoceo »

winkeltripel wrote: post #145
jasode wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The main way people use VS code is through the proprietarized official build that uses the official EULA The blog author complained about "Live Share" as one example. As far as I can tell, "Live Share" is not in the builds one downloads from Microsoft's "Visual Studio Code" website: https://code.visualstudio.com/download The Live Share feature is downloaded from a separate web page: https://marketplace.visualstudio.…

> Can someone explain how the situations are not analogous? The difference is that typical usage of SQLite is co-located with an application, such that you don't need encryption, and it doesn't market itself as a great database to stand up on a far-away server. VSCode is marketing these extensions with the core product, as features thereof. They seem to be much closer to critical, core functionality. I think that the…

Hmm. Nobody I know that uses VSCode uses either Remote or LiveShare. They don't seem critical or core to me.

Re: The best Parts of Visual Studio Code are proprietary

#167

Post by Barrin92 »

untog wrote: post #162
skohan wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but I dislike it when people are so desperate to blame Microsoft for mistakes it did in the past I find it a bit weird when people anthropomorphize corporations and feel bad for/protective of them. And let's be honest, we're not talking about "mistakes", we're talking about a decades-long strategy which was methodically executed to cultivate good will, and then take advantage of it to destroy competitors.

Conversely, I find it a bit weird when people anthropomorphize corporations as if they have personalities and traits that somehow live beyond an almost 100% turnover in staff and senior management changes. The MS of today isn’t the MS of the 90s. That’s not to say they’re virtuous and wonderful today, just that banging on about the past doesn’t really feel relevant.

> I find it a bit weird when people anthropomorphize corporations as if they have personalities and traits that somehow live beyond an almost 100% turnover in staff and senior management changes.

Companies definitely have personalities and traits that last longer than their constituent members, that's what's called a culture. Just like a nation has defining features that will still be around when every single currently living member is dead, so have companies. In particular old, large ones.

That's not to say that they can't change, and Microsoft definitely has changed since the 90s, but the past is not irrelevant.

Re: The best Parts of Visual Studio Code are proprietary

#168

Post by pjmlp »

jefftk wrote: post #159
pjmlp wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which the large majority chooses not to, so there you have it, the open source dream.

On the other hand, Safari's WebKit being open source allowed Google to build Chrome on the same engine. Years later, Chrome's Blink engine being open source meant the same for Opera, Brave, and Edge. It is hard for individuals to run and maintain custom forks, but the benefits of open source in terms of preventing lock-in are substantial.

The same WebKit that now breaks the mobile Web and it being open source is completely irrelevant.

Re: The best Parts of Visual Studio Code are proprietary

#169

Post by swsieber »

fadzlan wrote: post #130

The extension by design is made to be optional to use and are not integral (I would argue) to the vanilla experience of VS Code. That also means that if other people wants to create their own proprietary extensions they can do so. The basic experience of the plain VS Code does not change. Now one can say indeed that the Remote and also LiveShare is the best extension there of, and since the extension author decides n…

There is an alternative public directory: https://open-vsx.org/

It's used by vs codium and theia.

It's not just those two plugins, it's also the ms-code.cpptools which has proprietary parts. And that's sad because other plugins are built on it like platformio. Which prevents platformio from being added to ovsx because the cpp tools can't be added to ovsx.

Which stinks for me because the cpp proprietary parts are windows only, and all I want to use platformio from is theia running on Linux, but I can't.

VS Codium: https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium

Theia IDE: https://theia-ide.org/

More details about PlatformIO not being to be added to OVSX: https://github.com/open-vsx/publish-extensions/issues/86

More cpp tools licensing details: https://github.com/microsoft/vscode-cpptools/issues/5784

Edit: you can run theia from one computer and use it via the browser on another. That's why I was so excited for it.

Edit 2: VS Codium, not open codium

Re: The best Parts of Visual Studio Code are proprietary

#170

Post by _Microft »

untog wrote: post #162
skohan wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but I dislike it when people are so desperate to blame Microsoft for mistakes it did in the past I find it a bit weird when people anthropomorphize corporations and feel bad for/protective of them. And let's be honest, we're not talking about "mistakes", we're talking about a decades-long strategy which was methodically executed to cultivate good will, and then take advantage of it to destroy competitors.

Conversely, I find it a bit weird when people anthropomorphize corporations as if they have personalities and traits that somehow live beyond an almost 100% turnover in staff and senior management changes. The MS of today isn’t the MS of the 90s. That’s not to say they’re virtuous and wonderful today, just that banging on about the past doesn’t really feel relevant.

I've observed that people in my environment that used to not like Microsoft still don't today while they are completely oblivious to the conduct of Google, Facebook or Amazon at the same time.

I see it as reminder to frequently check whether my opinions on different things are still valid.

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