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Why aren’t we talking more about airborne transmission?

theatlantic.com

241–250 of 292 posts

Re: Why aren’t we talking more about airborne transmission?

#241
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Indoor mask-wearing becomes CRITICAL in public spaces Mask wearing provides minimal benefits against droplet transmission, but they do nothing at all for small droplet aerosol transmission.

Studies have found that a combination of multi-layered cotton and chiffon/silk masks prevents intake of both large and small droplets. Silk/chiffon act magnetically on smaller particles to keep you from breathing them in, while the thick cotton layers stop large droplets. The aggregate effect is similar to N95, but more washable and reusable. It blows my mind that this was discovered a couple months ago and the gover…

> Newer studies have found that even just a thick cotton mask does somewhat protect you

No they haven't. If the effect of masks was so strong it would be easy to find that when we do trials. We've done the trials and we struggle to see the effect. Once we drop down the quality requirements we start to see an effect, but even that is mild.

https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736%2820...

> Although direct evidence is limited, the optimum use of face masks, in particular N95 or similar respirators in health-care settings and 12–16-layer cotton or surgical masks in the community, could depend on contextual factors; action is needed at all levels to address the paucity of better evidence. Eye protection might provide additional benefits. Globally collaborative and well conducted studies, including randomised trials, of different personal protective strategies are needed regardless of the challenges, but this systematic appraisal of currently best available evidence could be considered to inform interim guidance

There's no way to spin phrases like "direct evidence is limited" and "paucity of evidence" to mean "we've got good quality evidence that shows an effect".

Re: Why aren’t we talking more about airborne transmission?

#242

I am still shocked: months after research has shown that SARS-CoV-2 is airborne stable in aerosol form for over 3 hours, we still aren’t telling the public that room air purifiers are a ‘good thing’ (for making indoor air like outdoor air - in regards to virion density per cubic air volume) The filter technology is essentially the same as in the N95, orders of magnitude more effective than cloth masks. Put these indo…

> we still aren’t telling the public that room air purifiers are a ‘good thing’ (for making indoor air like outdoor air - in regards to virion density per cubic air volume) > The filter technology is essentially the same as in the N95 So, due to the very small size of this virus, in microns. Most air filters on the market are still not good enough. HEPA isn't good enough, is it better than nothing? Yes but not much.…

The virions initially travel in large droplets of water that eventually turn into small micron-sized water droplets, these happen to overlap with the high filter efficiency regime.

For aerosol filtration, cloth masks are not very effective, much less than 40% has been measured.

Re: Why aren’t we talking more about airborne transmission?

#243
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was clear from the very beginning that transmission was airborne. To me the only thing that was clear was the definition of airborne is not standard. By strict definition, COVID is not airborne since it seems to require a host material (e.g. water droplet). This is in contrast to measles which individual virus particles can survive without a host material. Practically speaking though, COVID seems to be able to s…

>By strict definition, COVID is not airborne since it seems to require a host material (e.g. water droplet). You are wrong. Read: 1. https://www.who.int/news-room/commentaries/detail/transmissi... . 2. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2342-5_reference.... . Aerosol transmission is the main vector. Consider posing your statement in the reverse: SARS-CoV-2 does not disperse in droplets, and/or is not infectio…

> Aerosol transmission is the main vector.

By strict definition, aerosol is not airborne. The behaviors converge, but there is a technical difference. It's particularly important when it comes to designing effective filtering material and sanitization processes.

Re: Why aren’t we talking more about airborne transmission?

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "...SARS-CoV-2 is airborne stable in aerosol form for over 3 hours..." see, this is the kind of insinuation that does none of us any good. it's like doing PCR to connote live virus particles live for 17 days on surfaces (spoiler: they don't). with that said, i'm down for air purifiers in living spaces† for a whole host of good health reasons, but most commercial spaces and public buildings (like schools) already ha…

> most commercial spaces and public buildings (like schools) already have HVAC systems incorporating HEPA filters (as good or better than N95 masks). So, here's some anecdata. I have a PM2.5 sensor; not a great one, but good enough to measure relative changes. After buying an air purifier the PM2.5 count in our house dropped dramatically and consistently. Whereas the lower end before was a "2", now it reaches to "0";…

This, it is amazing how long small particles linger. It’s like looking in a sun beam and seeing floating fibers near the couch.

A very fun experiment to show children is to use a green laser pointer near a carpet floor so it is floating across the floor a couple inches.

Then have the children hit the carpet around the beam and the beam will suddenly appear as the light scatters from the micron-sized dust particles. You can see how long it takes them to resettle, and point the laser anywhere to count a crude interaction/second with the light beam to get a sense of how dirty the air is (laser light volume is quite small :))

Re: Why aren’t we talking more about airborne transmission?

#245
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is -- why assume it can't form aerosols and that those aerosols aren't infectious? By demanding evidence for aerosol formation that is what they are stating. It makes no sense. Most viruses do form aerosols, and those aerosols do seem to be infectious. Are you really prepared to make the bet that they aren't infectious?

> Most viruses do form aerosols, and those aerosols do seem to be infectious. It's my understanding that most don't spread in this fashion. If you're hospitalized with cold/flu, your care team will observe droplet precautions, not aerosol ones. If you have measles, which spreads via aerosol, they'll be using substantially more gear. The aerosol transmission is also why measles is shockingly easy to spread versus most…

> If you're hospitalized with cold/flu, your care team will observe droplet precautions, not aerosol ones.

From my understanding, part of this is because most hospitals don't have aerosol specific precautions. Pre-COVID, anything requiring more than droplet precautions was simply handled with full-airborne precautions (negative pressure room, PAPR, etc).

Ideally, we'd have the airborne-precaution PPE for all COVID care but that's extremely expensive and leadership (hospital and gov't) have become aware that healthcare workers will still show up to work even without proper protection.

Re: Why aren’t we talking more about airborne transmission?

#246
post #215

I am still shocked: months after research has shown that SARS-CoV-2 is airborne stable in aerosol form for over 3 hours, we still aren’t telling the public that room air purifiers are a ‘good thing’ (for making indoor air like outdoor air - in regards to virion density per cubic air volume) The filter technology is essentially the same as in the N95, orders of magnitude more effective than cloth masks. Put these indo…

> is airborne stable in aerosol form AKA, it's not airborne. If it requires water particles to host the virus, its not airborne.

We need good diagrams that show the virus in a small drop of water with labels showing what we mean :)

Re: Why aren’t we talking more about airborne transmission?

#247
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Indoor mask-wearing becomes CRITICAL in public spaces Mask wearing provides minimal benefits against droplet transmission, but they do nothing at all for small droplet aerosol transmission.

That's actually the opposite of what the evidence shows. Masks - even crappy ones, with poor mask protocol - dramatically cut infections https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/06/modeling-the-impact-... Citation: https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818 Remember: even if a mask doesn't effectively filter out very small particles, it still restricts the velocity of air passing through it. This means…

About your arstechnica link: if masks don't work all that effectively you need huge numbers of people to wear them to prevent a single infection.

https://www.fhi.no/globalassets/dokumenterfiler/rapporter/20...

> Non-medical facemasks include a variety of products. There is no reliable evidence of the effectiveness of non-medical facemasks in community settings. There is likely to be substantial variation in effectiveness between products. However, there is only limited evidence from laboratory studies of potential differences in effectiveness when different products are used in the community.

> Given the low prevalence of COVID-19 currently, even if facemasks are assumed to be effective, the difference in infection rates between using facemasks and not using facemasks would be small.Assuming that 20% of people infectious with SARS-CoV-2 do not have symptoms,and assuming a risk reduction of 40% for wearing facemask, 200000 people would need to wear facemasks to prevent one new infection per week in the current epide-miological situation.

Here's all the science: we don't know if masks work or not. https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/masking-lack-of-evidence-with-...

They have a plausible mechanism of action, but they also have plausible mechanisms of harm. The above link includes one trial where they appeared to be harmful:

> It is debatable whether any of these results could be applied to the transmission of SARs-CoV-2. Only one randomised trial (n=569) included cloth masks. This trial found ILI rates were 13 times higher in Vietnamese hospital workers allocated to cloth masks compared to medical/surgical masks, RR 13.25, (95%CI 1.74 to 100.97) and over three times higher when compared to no masks,* RR 3.49 (95%CI 1.00 to 12.17). 4

This is potentially because the masks start to lose effectiveness as soon as you put them on. DIY cloth masks soon become waterlogged with condensation, and then when you breath you push out aerosolised drops.

https://www.ijic.info/article/view/10788

> This study was conducted to check the efficacy of face masks in limiting bacterial dispersal when worn continuously in Operation Theater. A comparison was done to find out difference between fabric and two ply disposable masks. The first sample was collected prior to wearing the mask, using cough plate method holding a blood agar plate approximately 10 -12 centimeters away from the mouth. the personnel were asked to produce “ahh” phonation. Participants were then asked to don the face mask, continue routine work and report to the study center located inside the theater for further sample collections at designated intervals of 30, 60, 90, 120 and 150 minutes after wearing the fabric mask made of cotton. the study was replicated on immediate next day using two ply disposable mask keeping all the other conditions and personnel exactly the same. Bacterial counts before wearing the mask were 5.36±4.38 and 5.7±2.99 on day 1 and day 2 of study. Bacterial counts were 0.96±1.06 (PMy point is that we don't have the evidence to say whether masks work or not. You posting links to arstechnica and un-peer-reviewed pre-prints supports my point, doesn't it? If we had a Cochrane Collaboration meta analysis saying masks worked everyone would be posting that.

Re: Why aren’t we talking more about airborne transmission?

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "...SARS-CoV-2 is airborne stable in aerosol form for over 3 hours..." see, this is the kind of insinuation that does none of us any good. it's like doing PCR to connote live virus particles live for 17 days on surfaces (spoiler: they don't). with that said, i'm down for air purifiers in living spaces† for a whole host of good health reasons, but most commercial spaces and public buildings (like schools) already ha…

> most commercial spaces and public buildings (like schools) already have HVAC systems incorporating HEPA filters (as good or better than N95 masks). So, here's some anecdata. I have a PM2.5 sensor; not a great one, but good enough to measure relative changes. After buying an air purifier the PM2.5 count in our house dropped dramatically and consistently. Whereas the lower end before was a "2", now it reaches to "0";…

that could be, but i'd note that a 2->0 PM2.5 count drop is likely not material to health as opposed to, say, a 20->2 drop. and furthermore, the time-averaged PM2.5 count while home is more relevant than the minimum absolute value.

Re: Why aren’t we talking more about airborne transmission?

#249

I am still shocked: months after research has shown that SARS-CoV-2 is airborne stable in aerosol form for over 3 hours, we still aren’t telling the public that room air purifiers are a ‘good thing’ (for making indoor air like outdoor air - in regards to virion density per cubic air volume) The filter technology is essentially the same as in the N95, orders of magnitude more effective than cloth masks. Put these indo…

Does anyone know how effective home filter purifiers are? I have been going to my office because of AC.

I am about 20 feet from my partner. He keeps his door closed I keep mine open. I bought two purifiers/filters one for each. they say HEPA but I have no idea if that's true. I keep mine running all the time even overnight. I'm young and healthy so likely risk is low but still being hot might be a worthy trade off.

One commenter below says HEPA isn't even effective

Re: Why aren’t we talking more about airborne transmission?

#250
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um.. it is airborne, that is why there are multiple super-spreader events that can’t be explained by someone interacting within 3-6 feet for 10 minutes. (e.g. cases of 1 to 100, 1:500 case reported as well). If you walked into an empty hospital room that was just used with high air-virion density, you could get infected, that is why they decontaminate with the equipment you see. I think the main reason this isn’t bei…

Ok - these multiple superspreader events... do you mean 100's or 10's or a few? And when you say "can't be explained " really? Can you provide some back up to this information?

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...

https://www.vox.com/21296067/coronavirus-covid-symptoms-supe...

(put the air purifiers in the bathroom it seems...)

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