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Why Paul Graham is wrong about New York City

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Re: Why Paul Graham is wrong about New York City

#11

Post by ardit33 »

Have you seen rents in NYC, how about try to shop for groceries? That's right, that place is so expensive that it is hard not to be worried about money all the damn time.

So, yes, NYC to a certain point is more about money than anything else.

I have seen it even in dating, when you see so many good looking girls, just dating around so they can have the "Sex and the City" glam life, that they couldn't afford themselves. And this "dinner whore" term (sorry if I am being rude), originated in the east coast.

In SF people seem to be a lot less interested on how much money you make, at least when it comes to dating.

Re: Why Paul Graham is wrong about New York City

#12

Post by [deleted] »

wallflower wrote: post #9
tstegart wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe its not all about money, but its definitely more about money. Coming from Wisconsin and working in Manhattan, I find my midwestern frugalness is completely alien to people. Time is money here, there is no doubt about it. Walking three blocks and taking a subway ride gets thrown out the window in favor of a $20 cab ride. Its the small stuff but it adds up. When a city suffers a shortage of BMWs after Wall Street…

In NYC, they have laws that a renter must earn an annual income that is 52x the monthly rent to qualify to rent the apartment (yes, subletting from someone is one way around it). In NYC, a 1BR apartment that you live in by yourself is a status symbol. The average monthly rent is north of $2,500. Spending $2k+ on rent just to live in the city, maybe that's more about ego than it is about money..

[deleted]

Re: Why Paul Graham is wrong about New York City

#13

Post by tstegart »

timr wrote: post #5
tstegart wrote: post #3

You know I was cleaning this weekend and apparently I missed the start of "Put the smack-down on PG" week. Any way I can catch up by Friday? Suggestions PG? I have a tentative work entitled "Why PG is wrong about the color of the HN menubar," but I'm not sure it has the same pizzaz as this other stuff we're seeing.

The point of submitting this wasn't to pick on pg -- it's a thoughtful piece, and adds a new voice to the discussion. Interesting conversations have two sides.

Thats true. It was not a comment about this article, it was a joke about many articles appearing in a short time frame all disagreeing with PG in some way or another. All the responses seem to have come out at once. Conversations are good, although I have a running disagreement on a different thread over the logic of some comments, I have to say they are enjoyable to read.

Re: Why Paul Graham is wrong about New York City

#14

Post by krschultz »

Working at a startup in NYC I have to disagree with pg as well. I think if anything the vibe is "i am more hip than you are". The place where the vibe is "i have more money than you do" is in Westchester, NY - where all the wall streeters live. They commute in and out, and take all their money to build big homes on the water up there. That has been true since the mid 1800s. The people who are actually into the culture of the city are in the small apartments in Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx, and even within Manhattan.

Read this as well http://shripriya.com/blog/2008/05/29/new-yorks-message-have-...

Re: Why Paul Graham is wrong about New York City

#15

Post by aditya »

wallflower wrote: post #9
tstegart wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe its not all about money, but its definitely more about money. Coming from Wisconsin and working in Manhattan, I find my midwestern frugalness is completely alien to people. Time is money here, there is no doubt about it. Walking three blocks and taking a subway ride gets thrown out the window in favor of a $20 cab ride. Its the small stuff but it adds up. When a city suffers a shortage of BMWs after Wall Street…

In NYC, they have laws that a renter must earn an annual income that is 52x the monthly rent to qualify to rent the apartment (yes, subletting from someone is one way around it). In NYC, a 1BR apartment that you live in by yourself is a status symbol. The average monthly rent is north of $2,500. Spending $2k+ on rent just to live in the city, maybe that's more about ego than it is about money..

Maybe that's the reason a lot of startup action is happening in Brooklyn, where all the cool designer types and hackers are moving to.

The rent is lower and the people are just nicer, in DUMBO where our startup is based there's atleast 5 other startups in a 10 block radius. Which, while not SoMa is still pretty good :)

Re: Why Paul Graham is wrong about New York City

#16

Post by greatreorx »

"It would have made no sense for me to build Path 101 anywhere else but NYC, because my network is here."

So right... if you have spent your whole life in NYC, went to college there, and spent a year working at one of the most well known East coast VC firms (like Charlie has), then yes, Paul Graham is completely wrong about doing your start up in NYC. But what about the kid who just graduated from college and is deciding where to do his startup? Charlie's New York is not the same New York that a newcomer will experience.

I live in NY and love the city, but I agree with PG on this if your only goal in life is the success of your startup. If you have other goals though - like having interesting and diverse friends, or great experiences, and don't mind having to overcome more challenges than you would face in the Valley - then NYC is a great place for you.

Re: Why Paul Graham is wrong about New York City

#17

Post by dpapathanasiou »

byrneseyeview wrote: post #10
aditya wrote: post #6

Frankly, it's almost impossible to find good engineers in NYC. The banks do take them all, that doesn't mean that it's impossible to start up in the city, it is just harder. On the west coasts, startups compete with other startups and employees bounce around making similar amounts of money. In New York, startups compete with financial institutions which can and do throw enormous amounts of cash at employees without a…

I wonder if the banking thing isn't as much of a problem as it seems. I work as a financial recruiter, and one of the patterns I see is an on/off relationship with startups and banks, e.g. working two years at Goldman, then one year at a new search engine, then a year at Credit Suisse, then three years starting up a new wiki-based whatsit. If you know you can quit and -- within a few months -- be earning a great livi…

If you know you can quit and -- within a few months -- be earning a great living writing trading algorithms in C++ or reporting systems in Java, a startup is a much saner risk.

That cuts both ways, though: it's too easy to bail at the first hint of trouble at a startup, which is why there are relatively few great startup stories out of NY.

Re: Why Paul Graham is wrong about New York City

#18

Post by jawngee »

wallflower wrote: post #9
tstegart wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe its not all about money, but its definitely more about money. Coming from Wisconsin and working in Manhattan, I find my midwestern frugalness is completely alien to people. Time is money here, there is no doubt about it. Walking three blocks and taking a subway ride gets thrown out the window in favor of a $20 cab ride. Its the small stuff but it adds up. When a city suffers a shortage of BMWs after Wall Street…

In NYC, they have laws that a renter must earn an annual income that is 52x the monthly rent to qualify to rent the apartment (yes, subletting from someone is one way around it). In NYC, a 1BR apartment that you live in by yourself is a status symbol. The average monthly rent is north of $2,500. Spending $2k+ on rent just to live in the city, maybe that's more about ego than it is about money..

There's no such law, it's a general guideline that it be between 42-52 times the rent. Which makes a ton of sense to me.

While rent is "extreme" for people who don't live here, you should also consider that we generally don't have the same expenses as people in the burbs or elsewhere. We don't own cars, we don't buy gas, etc. That right there knocks $500-750 off your living expenses. Furthermore, you need to consider rent in NYC as a culture tax because no where else in the world will you find anything remotely similar in terms of fashion, design, art, food, etc. You might think you're approximating it with the Olive Garden in suburbia, but you aren't even close.

PS. I pay $2550 for a 3 bedroom with a backyard in the second nicest neighborhood in Brooklyn.

Re: Why Paul Graham is wrong about New York City

#19

Post by hugh »

byrneseyeview wrote: post #10
aditya wrote: post #6

Frankly, it's almost impossible to find good engineers in NYC. The banks do take them all, that doesn't mean that it's impossible to start up in the city, it is just harder. On the west coasts, startups compete with other startups and employees bounce around making similar amounts of money. In New York, startups compete with financial institutions which can and do throw enormous amounts of cash at employees without a…

I wonder if the banking thing isn't as much of a problem as it seems. I work as a financial recruiter, and one of the patterns I see is an on/off relationship with startups and banks, e.g. working two years at Goldman, then one year at a new search engine, then a year at Credit Suisse, then three years starting up a new wiki-based whatsit. If you know you can quit and -- within a few months -- be earning a great livi…

It doesn't work in quite the same way for physicists/quants though. Once you leave physics and go into finance it's extremely hard to make the jump back -- a few years in finance puts you way behind your peers in the race for publications, and you're pretty much stuck there forever. The startup scene is far more forgiving to its apostates than the physics scene is.

I personally wish it were easier for physicists to spend just a few years in finance to find out whether they like it, and/or to save up some money.

Re: Why Paul Graham is wrong about New York City

#20

Post by j2d2 »

When PG says New York City, I usually take it to mean Manhattan. Brooklyn and Queens are both pretty awesome. If anyone here is from NYC, I'd love to start some real-life gatherings for YC'ers.

Edit: on this topic, I believe reddit started in brooklyn and later relocated. Can anyone confirm?

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