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Stingrays and Dirtboxes: how cops can secretly track your phone

theintercept.com

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Re: Stingrays and Dirtboxes: how cops can secretly track your phone

#21

Post by grawprog »

jeffbee wrote: post #10
jjulius wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't expect end users with little-to-no technical know-how to have the same common knowledge that you do.

Well, why not? How can we improve general technological literacy? I don't want people to memorize the protocols, but I do want them to have the foundation of knowledge that would allow them to conclude that if the phone company can connect calls to your mobile handset, then they can also figure out roughly where it is. I'd also like for people to have the basic knowledge required to understand that GPS does not track…

>would allow them to conclude that if the phone company can connect calls to your mobile handset, then they can also figure out roughly where it is

To be fair, people have trouble concluding they can be tracked or found when they sign in to a service and are asked repeatedly if said service can have access to their location, then use said service to check in or announce their location publicly.

Re: Stingrays and Dirtboxes: how cops can secretly track your phone

#22

Post by jdefr89 »

seniorsassycat wrote: post #14

> stingrays can force phones to downgrade to 2G, a less secure protocol, and tell the phone to use either no encryption or use a weak encryption that can be cracked. Can android, iOS, or an open phone os prevent 2g communication?

Hey, I used to briefly work on the device in question. It’s capabilities go far beyond just downgrading cellular service. I obviously can’t say much more about it but I am a huge proponent of creating strong laws regarding who can use such a device and when. Putting such devices in the hands of low level law enforcement officers to use against their communities for trivial reasons can only turn out poorly.

Re: Stingrays and Dirtboxes: how cops can secretly track your phone

#23

Post by floatingatoll »

Wi-Fi Calling while in Airplane mode would not be subject to Stingray interception, and would protect IMEI data from airborne bulk capture.

Authorities can still set up open SSIDs to capture limited information about phones, but the "fly an airplane over" capture model doesn't work well with Wi-Fi.

Re: Stingrays and Dirtboxes: how cops can secretly track your phone

#24

Post by jacquesm »

shakna wrote: post #15
seniorsassycat wrote: post #14

> stingrays can force phones to downgrade to 2G, a less secure protocol, and tell the phone to use either no encryption or use a weak encryption that can be cracked. Can android, iOS, or an open phone os prevent 2g communication?

It happens within the OS for the baseband processor, not within the OS of the actual phone. Unsurprisingly, the details of how the baseband processor work are a highly guarded secret, and trying to reverse engineer anything around it will end up with a heft lawsuit thrown at you.

> trying to reverse engineer anything around it will end up with a heft lawsuit thrown at you.

Is there an example of that? I can't imagine how reverse engineering anything would get a hefty lawsuit thrown at you. Maybe if you were to publish the results with your name under it, but just the act of reverse engineering?

Re: Stingrays and Dirtboxes: how cops can secretly track your phone

#25

Post by jdefr89 »

arsome wrote: post #8

Do they even need to bother with a Stingray, can't they basically just pull up whatever provider's law enforcement portal and click a few buttons?

They will need a warrant usually even with stingray. I worked at said company on said technologies and left because I was comfortable with controls in place that prevent law enforcement from abusing it.

Re: Stingrays and Dirtboxes: how cops can secretly track your phone

#27

Post by jagged-chisel »

jdefr89 wrote: post #25
arsome wrote: post #8

Do they even need to bother with a Stingray, can't they basically just pull up whatever provider's law enforcement portal and click a few buttons?

They will need a warrant usually even with stingray. I worked at said company on said technologies and left because I was comfortable with controls in place that prevent law enforcement from abusing it.

> I was comfortable

I think perhaps you meant the opposite? You have about 30min to edit your comment...

Re: Stingrays and Dirtboxes: how cops can secretly track your phone

#28

Post by bob1029 »

rrose wrote: post #18
jeffbee wrote: post #2

TL;DR it's a radio in your pocket that constantly announces its identity. I'm quite interested in the fact that people don't realize this. Is it a generational split between people who can remember when we did not all have radios in our pockets and those who can't, or ??? The fact that an always-on radio you carry everywhere can be used to track you seems like the #1 most obvious thing about the technology.

I feel like you're ignoring a key point here, which is that these stingray devices can MitM your phone by forcing it to send essentially unencrypted messages. That's both more technically complicated and more serious than passive tracking.

I don't think OP is ignoring any points. It is a statement of fact that we've been carrying around what ultimately amount to high power RFID surveillance devices in our pockets for about 20-30 years now (en masse). There are also many on this board at this very moment who can remember life before any of this technology or concern was a thing.

In 1990, if you walked to the store without telling anyone where you were going, you were basically a ghost as far as anyone else was concerned. In 2020, even if you leave all of your digital electronics at home, you will probably be detected by someone else's electronics.

Re: Stingrays and Dirtboxes: how cops can secretly track your phone

#29

Post by steffan »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #12
jeffbee wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, why not? How can we improve general technological literacy? I don't want people to memorize the protocols, but I do want them to have the foundation of knowledge that would allow them to conclude that if the phone company can connect calls to your mobile handset, then they can also figure out roughly where it is. I'd also like for people to have the basic knowledge required to understand that GPS does not track…

The median IQ is 100, meaning half of all people have IQs below 100. Many of them did not grow up in an environment that pushes lifelong learning. Lots of people do what they've been trained to do and nothing more, which is good! Our society needs people like that. But expecting people like that to think for themselves is a sure way to become needlessly frustrated. edit: switched average to median.

The measure that describes what you state would be the median, which is defined as the point at which there are as many values above as below.

Averages will skew with large outliers on either side. E.g. if Bezos and I are alone in a room together, the average person in that room has $95B dollars. (Granted, in an n=2 situation, the median isn't meaningful either)

Re: Stingrays and Dirtboxes: how cops can secretly track your phone

#30

Post by kome »

jdefr89 wrote: post #19

Hey. Someone who briefly worked on the Stingray team here. I left the company that develops the stingray (who’s name is mentioned in the article but I shall not say it) because I didn’t feel comfortable with the ethics of how it could potentially be easily abused without legal permission and/or repercussion. I fear these technologies will become more commonly used against Americans by low level law enforcement withou…

Thank you for walking away.

I hope more people will follow your example and question their work. Not only at Harris Corporation, but in every part of what is called surveillance capitalism.

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