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The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

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101–110 of 140 posts

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've put "banks are racist" in speech marks, but I can't find where you're quoting it from. The question is begging an easy answer to a structural problem. But note that, when a pandemic unfairly makes it expensive for businesses with disproportionately white shareholders to lend, the taxpayer spends trillions to make it cheaper. Edit: Isn't that exactly what JP Morgan Chase are talking about doing about in the lin…

"Banks are racist" is my very short summary of the supposed situation. The problem I have with such explanations is the same I have with "women get 20-30% less money for the absolute same work". Since labor is the major cost factor in most industries, any company exploiting that arbitrage would stomp their competitors. Why wouldn't anyone want to get rich off of lending to minorities? Pecunia non olet, I'm sure even…

A) They are doing it

B) Markets aren't perfect

C) You have to fight against, or change the influence of (through, say, commentary in the media), the government's funding and regulation.

>Are the shareholders mostly white? It's my understanding that most large investors are pension funds, insurance companies and the like, not individuals.

Who owns and benefits from the funds?

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#102
post #44

Sadly, these buildings just aren’t good investments, and he’s not a good investor. Buildings that old are subject to all kinds of safety regulations, and Birmingham is not an easy town to work through that kind of thing. No one in the city is going to stick their neck out to cut through decades of regulations only to lose their job when there’s a fire or collapse. Any new owner will be tied up in red tape and rehab r…

How are you able to tell the state of the buildings in such details from the article alone? Unless I'm missing something, Rice pretty much addresses your comment in the article: "It's one thing to do this with one building," he says, "if it is small and falling apart. It's another thing to do it with eight buildings with sitting tenants."

You’re right, I can’t be certain, other than being reasonably familiar with this business. That’s a lot of real estate. He doesn’t specify how many are paying. If he had enough tenants to move the needle and the buildings were up to code he would have little trouble getting a loan.

I’m also willing to bet some serious money that either the buildings aren’t properly permitted for tenants, or that the previous owners were grandfathered in so they didn’t have to observe the same regulations the new owner will.

If you haven’t gone through this process it ranges from difficult to imagine to nearly unbelievable what it’s like to bring buildings into compliance. You spend hundreds of dollars to apply for a permit, wait to get it, spend thousands of dollars for an inspection, get incomprehensible paperwork a month later, call someone to find out it means some aspect of your building didn’t pass, hire a lawyer to find out what compliance means, try to find a contractor to fix the things the previous contractor didn’t understand, pay for another inspection, get referred to a different department for something else you didn’t know about... it’s enervating, brutal, and expensive.

Think you should have known what to do when you started? No municipalities have clear documentation on what to do when. You are just supposed to know it all ahead of time. No lawyer will coach you through it. Maybe, just maybe, you can find a local GC who can help. Or not. All municipalities have different rules. If you’re super lucky you can charm someone in the planning office to coach you a little, but they aren’t responsible if they forgot to help you with something. This just isn’t a business for the undercapitalized.

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#103
post #44

Sadly, these buildings just aren’t good investments, and he’s not a good investor. Buildings that old are subject to all kinds of safety regulations, and Birmingham is not an easy town to work through that kind of thing. No one in the city is going to stick their neck out to cut through decades of regulations only to lose their job when there’s a fire or collapse. Any new owner will be tied up in red tape and rehab r…

Racism has nothing and everything to do with it. The word 'racism' has several very different meanings, depending on which dialect of English you speak.

* In my hometown, racism would have nothing to do with it. The math doesn't work out for the investment, he was denied, case closed.

* In my current town, racism has everything to do with it. We've set up structural barriers to success, which correlate strongly with race. We have a moral duty to remove those barriers.

The difference comes down to different definitions of the word 'racism.'

It's not a question of precision either. Just as the same sound might mean something different in Italian than in English, the same word will mean something different in Seattle than in Alabama. The differences tend to be more subtle, so people don't recognize that they're talking about completely different things. That goes for a lot of words ("white supremacy" especially).

The high-level problem, though, is if we did invest in lower-income communities in the way the author describes, we'd be wealthier as a nation as a whole. Individual investments might not come out ahead (so private banks wouldn't necessarily want to finance that), but the net wealth generated in the community would more than make up for the new risk. If the federal government ran banks, even human element aside and just looking at likely expected impact on taxes, those loans would make sense. That's a problem it makes sense to fix. And the article gets back into reparations. Even if we did come out behind, morally, those risks would probably make sense too -- the multiplier of a loan like this which might be defaulted on is far greater than hand-outs. If nothing else, we've improved a few buildings and a community. But I don't think we would come out behind. Even back-of-the-envelope numbers place us well ahead.

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#104

> Financial reparations to African American communities are key, argues Prof Baradaran This seems obvious and fair. Blacks have never been given a fair chance in America. > In 1863, when President Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation, black Americans owned less than 1% of US total wealth. Nearly 160 years later, this number has barely budged. Just setting slaves free did not, in any way, put them on equal foo…

You might be right about the "most" qualifier (although I hope you're not) but have you been paying attention to the protests and media/editorial coverage of the black lives matter movement? It seems many white people are finally starting to grasp the idea that black people have always been severely disadvantaged in this country. A good example is the popularity of the "white fragility" concept and a broader effort to call out racism when it happens instead of worrying about the egos and shame of those accused.

Of course, there's also a lot of white people (conservatives, mostly) offended by this notion who are pushing back heavily. There's also obviously the issue that the majority of police in certain areas are particularly fragile and defensive when accused of being racists.

Two sides to the issue n all that.

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Redlining is a real practice done by banks and credit issuers that use race criteria based on where you live to discriminate against people of color. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

Redlining ended over fifty years ago. Pick a different bugaboo.

According to this article, it hasn't. Provide contradictory evidence.

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#106
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Every policy has a differential impact, that doesn't mean we chose not to address them when we see them. What do you mean? If every policy has a differential impact, then your contention is that therefore we must address every differential impact? If, let's say, bank has a policy that you need 20% down payment to qualify for a mortgage, and let's say this has a differential impact on some group, how do you go about…

We don't need to chose to address every differential impact, only the ones that we see as being bad, or particularly worthy of attention, for example the systematic exclusion of black people from the normal financial tools that allow us to build wealth.

I agree with this goal, but I don't see systemic exclusion in this article because the article didn't bother to do any investigation to understand where these policies came from. I keep reiterating this, but debt is an incredibly dangerous financial tool and you have to take extra care in differentiating someone being denied a loan because the objective risk profile is high vs being denied a loan because the bank is following racist policies.

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#107
post #10

The way the US property market works just completely blows my mind. Even with federal regulation there is a lot of racism inherently built into the system. Cities drain money from predominantly black neighborhoods by not repairing or updating infrastructure. Banks drain money from those neighborhoods by denying loans and undervaluing property. No surprise the buyer got an appraisal of $0.

It's not racism unless you subscribe to highly inclusive definitions of racism. It's just that government is mostly made up of people who are upper middle class or higher and government reflects their values so development they consider "nice" is facilitated and regulatory roadblocks are added to development they are suspect of. If you told HN that some random dude buying a bunch of dilapidated buildings and make the…

> government is mostly made up of people who are upper middle class or higher

Go to your city hall or their website and see if they have an organizational chart. For some of us one thing will overwhelmingly stick out. For others it's just business as usual.

> the municipality got rich on a boom of local industry 0-70yr ago and could afford to drive them out

This did not happen. Local industry collapsed and ushered in slumlords. City living has only started trending up within the last 2 decades.

Banks still rely on an outdated, and I would say racist, method of property valuation called "comps". The value of the property around you determines the value of the property you are buying. If you are trying to rehabilitate a distressed neighborhood you can't use that method. You'll end up with situations like this. Needing hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans meanwhile the buildings around you are valued at $0.

Of course you don't have to take my word for it. HUD has a whole enforcement arm targeting racial discrimination in banking [0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining#Court_system

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#108
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the question is absolutely not whether ther policy was created with the intent of racism, because we don't live in a world where racism is defined as a guy in a pointy white hat who also happens to be the bank manager stringing black men up for cat-calling his daughter. Every policy has a differential impact, that doesn't mean we chose not to address them when we see them.

In that line of thinking ("banks are racist"), what's the exaplantion for why there's nobody disrupting the market, providing loans (at a premium) to minority investors and making off with large profits?

Tim O’Reilly has been talking about that with his fund recently:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23657403

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#109
post #76

It is just depressing to read these comments. Most of these are arguing that it is not a good investment for the banks to invest in a high crime rate area. Well if it is not the banks, who else? If it is nobody, are these areas condemned to be in this state forever? It just shows how broken the American society and psyche has become. I am sure even if the local, state or federal government try to make the same "bad"…

It’s also been said that zero-interest rates has led to an economy awash in dumb money looking for a place to invest:

https://themargins.substack.com/p/zirp-explains-the-world

> Treasury investors shift to corporate debt. Public equity hedge funds shift to late-stage private equity. Late-stage private equity shifts to mid-stage, mid-stage to early stage. Seed rounds become bigger. Angel investors become a thing. Unicorns, unicorns, and more unicorns. Ashton Kutcher.

> And that's how we end up where we are. In the past, if somewhat risky corporate debt got you 10%. It now gets you 7% (I'm making up numbers here) so you start taking meetings with late-stage growth companies. The Saudi SWF wants to modernize their economy, but they are also looking to achieve returns once found in public equities, so they have to get creative. Blackrock gets jealous of KKR who gets jealous of a16z who gets jealous of YC. There is just so much money looking to do so many new, riskier things.

> And again, that's exactly how it's supposed to work. Cutting interest rates spurs demand and risk-taking.

> When that much money finds its way into places not used to that much money, weird things happen. It's how we got to Community-Adjusted EBITDA and sleep economies. You don't create a ridesharing service, but a service that oddly loses money on every ride with a promise to figure out some future business [Tough, but fair -Can]. The distortions live at the valuation level, but also the communications and expectations level. Things just get weird.

In which case, why opt for risky profit-less startups, and not attempts to revitalize local communities? It’s almost as if these cost-benefit analyses are skewed with built-in cultural biases and expectations.

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#110
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not public services. And yet the public does bail them out which suggests a symbiotic relationship with the economy and that banks have some responsibility to the greater whole.

> yet the public does bail them out Involuntarily, due to corruption of public officials. Don't read too much into it. There have been some attempts to run banks in an "altruistic" manner. I don't know of a successful one, just failures.

They are all around you. They are called credit unions and community banks.
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