Thomas Sowell interview • Hacker News Board

Re: Thomas Sowell interview

#161

Post by raxxorrax » Mon, Aug 03, 2020, 3:12 PM UTC

Eleopteryx wrote: post #18

vixen99 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be interesting to see where you think he's wrong especially where his arguments are based on some uncompromising statistical facts.

His argument that Donald Trump would be a better choice for President than Hillary Clinton because the former would be easier to remove from office than the latter, arguing specifically that "congressional Republicans would [not] automatically spring to his defense, if he overstepped the line". Doesn't seem like a great example of keen political judgment in hindsight.

I think there is merit to that, although I wouldn't care as much about republicans holding him to account. It would be nice but unrealistic from observations (not based in US).

I would argue that you should vote someone the press is actually critical of. Now, the press was very critical of H. Clinton too, but that was ignored because people made fun of Trump.

Re: Thomas Sowell interview

#162

Post by jl2718 » Mon, Aug 03, 2020, 3:13 PM UTC

sojournerc wrote: post #112

x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Are you suggesting all white conservatives are racist? Doesn't that sound like an overbroad, racist generalization itself? I'd like to find a good faith interpretation of your statement, but it really seems like your world view is that someone's skin color and political inclination determines their moral standing and beliefs.

No. Only the ones that like Thomas Sowell.

Re: Thomas Sowell interview

#163

Post by nordsieck » Mon, Aug 03, 2020, 3:13 PM UTC

chmod600 wrote: post #145

One important impact he had on my thinking is that he rejects groupings of people based on snapshots in time. For instance, it is very common to use income as a proxy for your economic success, and then to group people into quintiles, calling the bottom quintile "the poor". It seems reasonable, but it's wrong enough to lead to very wrong conclusions. A college student living on their own will appear to be a "poor hou…

> A college student living on their own will appear to be a "poor household", even though many are likely to be in the top quintile later on in their life.

A great example from the other side of the spectrum is house sales: Anyone who needs to move and owns a house typically sells their house and buys a new one. During that year, they'll sometimes show up as having extremely high income. Depending on how often they move, this could have a real impact.

Re: Thomas Sowell interview

#164

Post by mac01021 » Mon, Aug 03, 2020, 3:14 PM UTC

deiznof wrote: post #17

His economics are sound, but I often find that his takes on social issues are extremely reductionist. His social views a lot of the time are just standard conservative views (and wrong IMO), I wish he wasn't being praised for that. One example being his view on systemic racism, which he described as: “It does remind me of the propaganda tactics of Joseph Goebbels in the age of the Nazis, in which he was supposed to h…

Invoking similarity to Nazi propaganda is almost always a strategic error, and Thomas Sowell should know better. The actions of the third reich were so heinous that they are mostly recognized as precluding any comparison with the thoughts or actions of any normal, nonheinous people, and when you try to articulate such a comparison you come off in many or most people's eyes as totally hyperbolic.

Still, if you're willing to remain cool headed and entertain the most reasonable interpretation of what's being said, you'll have to admit that claims about 21st-century sociopolitical rhetoric having features in common with Nazi propaganda does not need to imply any kind of moral equivalence between the relevant 21st century activists and the Nazis.

The rhetoric of the third reich is probably the most famous example of a particular strategy, in which particular bugs of human psychology are exploited using scapegoating and the cultivation of a sense of victimhood. One could very reasonably believe that either (or both) of Donald Trump and lefty-social-justice-warrior types have been using such strategies to garner support WITHOUT thinking even with a few brain cells that either is morally comparable to the Nazis.

I have to think that this is how Mr. Sowell expects you to interpret what he's saying. It would be nice if he had an example other than the Nazis to use, since the holocaust carries so much emotional baggage, but there's just no other historical example of this rhetorical strategy that is so well known or so universally recognized as being in the wrong.

Re: Thomas Sowell interview

#165

Post by mtraven » Mon, Aug 03, 2020, 3:14 PM UTC

deiznof wrote: post #17

His economics are sound, but I often find that his takes on social issues are extremely reductionist. His social views a lot of the time are just standard conservative views (and wrong IMO), I wish he wasn't being praised for that. One example being his view on systemic racism, which he described as: “It does remind me of the propaganda tactics of Joseph Goebbels in the age of the Nazis, in which he was supposed to h…

Spurious comparisons to Nazis are a favorite tactic of his -- he famously compared Obama to Hitler because they both had enthusiastic crowds for their speeches. It's a mystery to me why anybody takes this man seriously.

Re: Thomas Sowell interview

#166

Post by tengbretson » Mon, Aug 03, 2020, 3:15 PM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #149

marcusverus wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Cancel Culture' here seems to refer to the rash of firings and administrative punishments for academics who question the progressive dogma, especially w/ regards to BLM, the gender pay gap, institutional racism, etc. Here is an academic 'cancellations' tracking document by the National Association of Scholars: https://www.nas.org/storage/app/media/New%20Documents/academ...

> Here is an academic 'cancellations' tracking document by the National Association of Scholars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Association_of_Schola... > The National Association of Scholars (NAS) is an American non-profit politically conservative advocacy group, with a particular interest in education.[2][3] It opposes a perceived political correctness on college campuses and supports a return to mid-20th-c…

What exactly is your point by posting that? Is it that these people should not have advocates?

Re: Thomas Sowell interview

#167

Post by poilcn » Mon, Aug 03, 2020, 3:15 PM UTC

alexarnesen wrote: post #117

wry_discontent wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For this community? Das Kapital. For something less rigorous and more accessible, probably something by Richard Wolff, but I'm not familiar enough w/ his writings to recommend anything specific.

I see you recommended the heavy work, not just the propaganda pamphlet - good. I haven't read Das Kapital and I should. However... My question: an oft repeated refrain, when Marx is touted as a reasonable alternative, is that any time anyone tried his ideas out, it was a total disaster (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Chavez). I have watched some Wolff on Youtube, as well as other lectures on Marxism, because I'm interested an…

You mention Pinker, that opens question whether you've met with work of Nicolas Taleb. He is not Marxist per se, one could say he's the opposite, but he is an ardent opponent of Pinker and his kind of reasoning, so his books could've challenged Pinker's opinion on these topics as well.

Re: Thomas Sowell interview

#168

Post by rayiner » Mon, Aug 03, 2020, 3:16 PM UTC

sradman wrote: post #15

z9e wrote: post #2

I’ve been reading a lot of his books lately, I cannot recommend enough. He does take a conservative approach to a lot of topics but the way he breaks things down helps you understand why. His book Basic Economics taught me more than any economics classes did in school.

> He does take a conservative approach to a lot of topics... Sowell's book A Conflict of Visions: Idealogical Origins of Political Struggles [1] is, ironically, a very good starting point in understanding what makes Sowell "conservative" (the Constrained Vision) vs "progressive" (the Unconstrained Vision). I think this is the work that impressed Steven Pinker. The categories get really messy, for example when he desc…

> If you ask a liberal or a saltwater economist, “What would somebody on the other side of this divide say here? What would their version of it be?” A liberal can do that. A liberal can talk coherently about what the conservative view is because people like me actually do listen. We don’t think it’s right, but we pay enough attention to see what the other person is trying to get at. The reverse is not true. You try to get someone who is fiercely anti-Keynesian to even explain what a Keynesian economic argument is, they can’t do it. They can’t get it remotely right. Or if you ask a conservative, “What do liberals want?”

Krugman overlooks that many conservatives were once liberals, while the reverse is typically not true. That doesn’t mean that those folks were wrong before and are correct now. But in terms of Krugman’s proposed test, they can probably at least articulate the opposite view based on having once held those beliefs.

Speaking for myself: I was a pretty standard agnostic coastal liberal back in high school, while wife was in Iowa reading National Review. We’re the same age and have experienced the same political history over the last 20 years. But I don’t think it was until recently that I could’ve cogently articulated her views on those various events. More importantly, I don’t think I could even have cogently articulated what she viewed as the parameters of what was being debated. (That is to say, I perceived a political debate being about X, while she perceived it being about Y.) She, on the other hand, is pretty good at articulating what I thought back then—like most young people her friends held liberal views.

Re: Thomas Sowell interview

#169

Post by ralusek » Mon, Aug 03, 2020, 3:16 PM UTC

It is such a travesty that Thomas Sowell is completely absent from the mainstream conversation about race. I also can't recommend Coleman Hughes enough, as someone who has in many ways taken the torch from Sowell.

There are so many black Americans that have never heard a perspective on their standing aside from those presented within the context of critical race theory; a set of conclusions which are completely obliterated by people like Sowell, Hughes, Jason Riley, Larry Elder, Carol Swain, Desi-Rae Campbell, Josephine Mathias, Shelby Steele, Kmele Foster, Glenn Loury, Jonathan McWhorter, among many others in this realm, all of whom have largely differing opinions.

Re: Thomas Sowell interview

#170

Post by rukittenme » Mon, Aug 03, 2020, 3:18 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #114

alexarnesen wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you clarify "the point of Thomas Sowell"? It seems as though you are ascribing a "point" to an individual, what do you mean by that? It seems like a non-sequitur to bring racism in on this thread - how does Sowell appeal to "white conservatives" more than conservatives of other backgrounds?

because they can hold him up as an unbiased intellectual despite the fact that most of the opinions that he voices are trite, and honestly just sound like talk radio. I mean, just go through a few of his statements: " Instead of trying to propagandize children to hug trees and recycle garbage, our schools would be put to better use teaching them how to analyze and test what is said by people who advocate tree-hugging…

> "Instead of trying to propagandize children to hug trees and recycle garbage, our schools would be put to better use teaching them how to analyze and test what is said by people who advocate tree-hugging, recycling, and innumerable other causes across the political spectrum."

Advocating for critical thinking is not bad. You shouldn't tell children what to believe. You should give them the tools to determine their own beliefs.

> "What do you call it when someone takes someone else's money openly by force? Robbery. What do you call it when a politician takes someone else's money in taxes and gives it to someone who is more likely to vote for him? Social Justice."

Are criticisms of social welfare limited to talk radio hosts?

> How is he nonconformist as far his views go?

He's nonconformist for the class he occupies. I.e. the "intellectual elite" (or however you want to refer to them).