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The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

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Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#71

Post by raziel2p »

aliante wrote: post #56
etchalon wrote: post #45

Reading these threads, it’s always frustrating to see people insist that it can’t be because of race. “There must be a logical, mathematical reason for this!” As a graduate of the Goldman Sachs 10KSB program, one of the most shocking things I found amongst my cohort was how many of the black small business owners were struggling with credit and financing. It didn’t make any sense when we discussed their business. Oft…

Check out the area where he wants the bank to “invest.” 608 19th street Ensley. Look on Google Streetview and Google Earth. Roofs have collapsed. Half the windows around there are smashed. A few large holes in walls. What would you value buildings in that area at?

Where did you get the exact addresses of the buildings he wanted to invest in?

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#72

Post by mschuster91 »

macspoofing wrote: post #53
mschuster91 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Banks don't use race as criteria for loans, just as auto insurance companies don't use race as criteria for setting rates. That's similar to saying a soap dispenser doesn't use race a criteria, that doesn't change the fact that the thing discriminated PoC. The core problem is biased data in the model - in this case ethnic composition of neighborhoods, in the case of the soap dispenser a lack of testing staff with n…

>that doesn't change the fact that the thing discriminated PoC. Intent matters. Every policy you can ever create will always have differential impact on any group you create. That's just a fact of reality. If you set a policy that you can only get a mortgage if you have 20% down, that could impact some ethnic group more than another - but that differential impact does NOT mean it is a racist policy. > in the case of…

> but that differential impact does NOT mean it is a racist policy

Oh it does. This unintentional racism is still racism, structural racism in this case as a decently diverse QA could have prevented this outcome.

A PoC unable to get soap doesn't care why the soap dispenser refuses to disperse soap, all he cares about is that he's getting racially discriminated based on his skin color.

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#73

Post by MattGaiser »

sct202 wrote: post #58
MattGaiser wrote: post #11

How much did he pay to buy those buildings in cash? That seems like key information to allow readers to draw conclusions. What was the market value for them?

Someone down thread posted addresses and this one on Zillow kind of matches the background pictures in the article. It may be for more than one address, since he could own contiguous buildings that got tagged to one transaction. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/610-19th-St-Ensley-AL-352...

The building across the road sold for $1500 a year later.

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#74

Post by johnyzee »

> Financial reparations to African American communities are key, argues Prof Baradaran

This seems obvious and fair. Blacks have never been given a fair chance in America.

> In 1863, when President Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation, black Americans owned less than 1% of US total wealth. Nearly 160 years later, this number has barely budged.

Just setting slaves free did not, in any way, put them on equal footing with the rest of the population, and they are still mostly in the hole today that they were then, through mostly no fault of their own.

Yet it is my impression that most white Americans, across the political spectrum, are repelled by this idea. There seems to be a widespread, though usually not so bluntly stated, sentiment, that blacks are to blame for their own problems. And not much recognition of how utterly disenfranchised, and frankly destroyed, this people were during slavery, and that this has effects generations later.

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#75

Post by macspoofing »

Traster wrote: post #61
macspoofing wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every policy you can create will have differential impact on any group you create. The question is, was the policy created with the intent of racism. And this is for policies in the abstract. Debt is an incredibly dangerous tool. It is not charity to give someone a loan they cannot afford - I've personally experienced it and I've personally seen it destroy lives. When I see someone get denied for a loan or a mortgage…

No, the question is absolutely not whether ther policy was created with the intent of racism, because we don't live in a world where racism is defined as a guy in a pointy white hat who also happens to be the bank manager stringing black men up for cat-calling his daughter. Every policy has a differential impact, that doesn't mean we chose not to address them when we see them.

>Every policy has a differential impact, that doesn't mean we chose not to address them when we see them.

What do you mean? If every policy has a differential impact, then your contention is that therefore we must address every differential impact?

If, let's say, bank has a policy that you need 20% down payment to qualify for a mortgage, and let's say this has a differential impact on some group, how do you go about addressing this?

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#76

Post by esalman »

It is just depressing to read these comments. Most of these are arguing that it is not a good investment for the banks to invest in a high crime rate area. Well if it is not the banks, who else? If it is nobody, are these areas condemned to be in this state forever? It just shows how broken the American society and psyche has become. I am sure even if the local, state or federal government try to make the same "bad" investment, the same people will come out demanding that tax dollars be spent elsewhere.

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#77

Post by bluntfang »

macspoofing wrote: post #41
gwd wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Banks don't use race as criteria for loans, just as auto insurance companies don't use race as criteria for setting rates. If this article is correct, then this claim is wrong. Banks may not directly use race as a criteria, but the claim is that they use race as a criteria for property value , and then use property value as a criteria for loans: > Five of his properties were in a decent state of repair and some had…

>Banks may not directly use race as a criteria, but the claim is that they use race as a criteria for property value, and then use property value as a criteria for loans ... You have to do the leg-work to show that Banks have a policy that is in intent racist because every policy you can ever think of will have a differential impact on any group you create - because groups will never be perfectly uniform. >Counting a…

Redlining is a real practice done by banks and credit issuers that use race criteria based on where you live to discriminate against people of color.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#78

Post by bluntfang »

macspoofing wrote: post #75
Traster wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the question is absolutely not whether ther policy was created with the intent of racism, because we don't live in a world where racism is defined as a guy in a pointy white hat who also happens to be the bank manager stringing black men up for cat-calling his daughter. Every policy has a differential impact, that doesn't mean we chose not to address them when we see them.

>Every policy has a differential impact, that doesn't mean we chose not to address them when we see them. What do you mean? If every policy has a differential impact, then your contention is that therefore we must address every differential impact? If, let's say, bank has a policy that you need 20% down payment to qualify for a mortgage, and let's say this has a differential impact on some group, how do you go about…

>If, let's say, bank has a policy that you need 20% down payment to qualify for a mortgage, and let's say this has a differential impact on some group, how do you go about addressing this?

You look to see why that's the case, and if it happens to be that those people have been recently (relative to society) emancipated slaves who've barely had 4 generations in a society that still systemically kills them via law enforcement, then you do whatever you can to change that.

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#79

Post by treis »

raziel2p wrote: post #71
aliante wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out the area where he wants the bank to “invest.” 608 19th street Ensley. Look on Google Streetview and Google Earth. Roofs have collapsed. Half the windows around there are smashed. A few large holes in walls. What would you value buildings in that area at?

Where did you get the exact addresses of the buildings he wanted to invest in?

The pictures and then you can verify he owns it through county records:

https://eringcapture.jccal.org/caportal/CA_PropertyTaxParcel...

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#80

Post by macspoofing »

mschuster91 wrote: post #72
macspoofing wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>that doesn't change the fact that the thing discriminated PoC. Intent matters. Every policy you can ever create will always have differential impact on any group you create. That's just a fact of reality. If you set a policy that you can only get a mortgage if you have 20% down, that could impact some ethnic group more than another - but that differential impact does NOT mean it is a racist policy. > in the case of…

> but that differential impact does NOT mean it is a racist policy Oh it does. This unintentional racism is still racism, structural racism in this case as a decently diverse QA could have prevented this outcome. A PoC unable to get soap doesn't care why the soap dispenser refuses to disperse soap, all he cares about is that he's getting racially discriminated based on his skin color.

>Oh it does.

I absolutely disagree with that statement. A uniform standard for all is the opposite of racist. It is literally what was fought for by every civil rights movement. We used to live in a world where certain groups had racist barriers placed with intent to bar them from those institutions. A Jewish teenager had to get through harder entrance exams and/or a quota to get into a university. The way to fix that was to provide a universal standard. If you meet these criteria, then you're in. A policy that requires 20% down payment for a mortgage is NOT a racist policy, even if it has differential impact. It just sets a bar for every individual because math doesn't care about race. People intrinsically understand fairness like this.

It is why Rosa Parks' refusal to sit at the back of the bus as a protest was so powerful - because everyone understood, even the racists, that it is unfair for the color of your skin to dictate your bus seat. And it was clearly a malevolent policy. And this is where the modern approaches to solve 'systemic' racism really worry me. A modern (satirical but not far from reality) spin on that racist bus policy would have white people sitting at the back of the bus in order to make up for past racism ... but in that case, you still cannot get away from intuitive notions of fairness. The fact remains, the idea that skin color dictates bus seat is unfair, even if you try to claim that you need to do it to make up for systemic racism and the races are reversed.

Sorry for the rant. You and I have fundamental disagreement on this point.

>A PoC unable to get soap doesn't care why the soap dispenser refuses to disperse soap

This has nothing to do with anything. It is a silly example. Yes, the soap dispenser company effed up (not maliciously, just ignorantly) and should be embarrassed about it, and it will cost them to replace those dispensers, and I can guarantee you they will learn their lesson. It isn't the end of the world, and we're all on the side here, even the good people at the soap dispenser company.

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