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The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

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Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#41
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no 'chicken and egg' problem. Banks don't use race as criteria for loans, just as auto insurance companies don't use race as criteria for setting rates. I also find perspectives like yours very perplexing. Debt is not charity. It is not charitable to provide debt to someone who cannot afford it. Not for the debtor, nor the lender. I've seen people suffer for years drowning in debt they could not afford. I've…

> Banks don't use race as criteria for loans, just as auto insurance companies don't use race as criteria for setting rates. If this article is correct, then this claim is wrong. Banks may not directly use race as a criteria, but the claim is that they use race as a criteria for property value , and then use property value as a criteria for loans: > Five of his properties were in a decent state of repair and some had…

>Banks may not directly use race as a criteria, but the claim is that they use race as a criteria for property value, and then use property value as a criteria for loans ...

You have to do the leg-work to show that Banks have a policy that is in intent racist because every policy you can ever think of will have a differential impact on any group you create - because groups will never be perfectly uniform.

>Counting a building with active tenants paying rent as being valued at $0 is ridiculous.

Not necessarily.

This is why these articles are so terrible. They didn't do investigative journalism. They didn't do the legwork. I can tell you right now, there is a reason why it is valued at $0 - we just didn't get that reason because the journalist is lazy.

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#42
post #7

This could be a chicken and egg problem, too. Banks lend on statistics, just as insurance companies have rates based upon the same. And insurance companies, for the most part, can assign rates based upon average accident rates, for identifiable traits. Like one's sex. Or where they live (a common way to get statistics without 'race/colour'). So what do I mean by the chicken and the egg, here? Well, imagine that black…

> If a specific statistical classification indicates more bankruptcy, then it becomes true.

Fortunately this isn't actually the chicken and egg problem you think it is.

Suppose that for defunct historical reasons the model is predicting a higher default rate for some population, so it says to approve 85% of their loan applications rather than 95%. Then half of those people get into trouble that getting a second loan would save them from, but because of the model, only 85% rather than 95% are given the other loan.

So then their repayment rate will be 90% rather than 95%, because not as many were saved by the loan, but wait -- 90% is more than 85%, because only half of them needed the second loan. So now the model starts predicting that it should expect a 90% repayment rate for that population, which then increases their actual repayment rate, and so on until it stabilizes at 95%.

If you could identify the exact degree to which the prediction is affecting itself then you could take it all out at once, but doing that is hard. If the evidence shows a lower repayment rate in a particular area, is that just the holdover, or is it because that area still has a present-day higher level of drug use and violent crime which negatively affects repayment? If it's the latter and you give them loans at scale under the assumption that it's just an artifact, the bank is going bust.

So unless you can disentangle it all, the data to do which is often not reasonably available, the only realistic option is waiting for it to filter through.

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#43
Check out the buildings he owns and the neighbourhood he is in on Google Earth and Google Streetview.

One address is 608 19th street Ensley.

He is surrounded by buildings which are abandoned and the roofs have caved in. Half the windows in the area are smashed. Saw a few crumbling walls.

Those building aren’t worth anything.

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#44
Sadly, these buildings just aren’t good investments, and he’s not a good investor. Buildings that old are subject to all kinds of safety regulations, and Birmingham is not an easy town to work through that kind of thing. No one in the city is going to stick their neck out to cut through decades of regulations only to lose their job when there’s a fire or collapse. Any new owner will be tied up in red tape and rehab requirements that would dwarf the value of the buildings themselves. It’s likely that feasibility studies, inspections (and reinspections), and permits alone would cost more than the buildings. They also tend to take months and even years to get through.

I’m a successful real estate investor and while I absolutely love old downtown areas like that, and would love to revitalize them myself, I couldn’t even talk my wife into one of those properties, much less eight for which I had no budget. The numbers just don’t pencil out.

Racism has nothing to do with it. In fact, banks love to make loans to women and minority business owners. But there are some risks that would be irresponsible, and this is a textbook example of a loan that’s likely to default, leaving the banks with costs they couldn’t possibly recover.

Just to make sure this post gets flagged to extinction, I’d like to suggest to anyone sure that this is a case of racism and not pragmatism put together an investment group and help out.

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#45
Reading these threads, it’s always frustrating to see people insist that it can’t be because of race. “There must be a logical, mathematical reason for this!”

As a graduate of the Goldman Sachs 10KSB program, one of the most shocking things I found amongst my cohort was how many of the black small business owners were struggling with credit and financing. It didn’t make any sense when we discussed their business.

Often times, their companies were in better financial situations than my own, yet, whereas I was fairly easily able to secure low-interest LOCs and credit lines, they were stuck with high-interest consumer cards, or worse.

This made their businesses inherently more fragile than mine, as the interest payments alone were eating into what would have been otherwise healthy margins.

There is often no logical, mathematical reason.

There is just new racism justified by the lasting impact of old racism, and sometimes it’s not even that:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/15/business/paycheck-protect...

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#47
post #7

This could be a chicken and egg problem, too. Banks lend on statistics, just as insurance companies have rates based upon the same. And insurance companies, for the most part, can assign rates based upon average accident rates, for identifiable traits. Like one's sex. Or where they live (a common way to get statistics without 'race/colour'). So what do I mean by the chicken and the egg, here? Well, imagine that black…

There is no 'chicken and egg' problem. Banks don't use race as criteria for loans, just as auto insurance companies don't use race as criteria for setting rates. I also find perspectives like yours very perplexing. Debt is not charity. It is not charitable to provide debt to someone who cannot afford it. Not for the debtor, nor the lender. I've seen people suffer for years drowning in debt they could not afford. I've…

> Banks don't use race as criteria for loans, just as auto insurance companies don't use race as criteria for setting rates.

That's similar to saying a soap dispenser doesn't use race a criteria, that doesn't change the fact that the thing discriminated PoC.

The core problem is biased data in the model - in this case ethnic composition of neighborhoods, in the case of the soap dispenser a lack of testing staff with non-white skin leading to misadjusted sensitivity for the photosensor - not being adequately filtered out. Banks and auto insurances absolutely do take account the neighborhood in their calculations and models.

Re: The frustration of trying to invest in my hometown

#50
post #7

This could be a chicken and egg problem, too. Banks lend on statistics, just as insurance companies have rates based upon the same. And insurance companies, for the most part, can assign rates based upon average accident rates, for identifiable traits. Like one's sex. Or where they live (a common way to get statistics without 'race/colour'). So what do I mean by the chicken and the egg, here? Well, imagine that black…

What you’re suggesting is illegal and has been illegal for quite some time. Credit policies have to be neutral in outcome. You can’t just cook up a clever way to be racist and hide it in some zip code algorithm. If your algorithm turns out to weigh against a certain people, it’s illegal. Even if it happened by accident, it’s illegal.
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