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Why Can't We All Just Get Along? Uncertain Biological Basis of Morality (2013)

theatlantic.com

41–50 of 68 posts

Re: Why Can't We All Just Get Along? Uncertain Biological Basis of Morality (2013)

#41
post #8

> One question you confront if you’re arguing for a single planetary moral philosophy: Which moral philosophy should we use? The Golden Rule is practically universal. I'm surprised it doesn't get a mention. I'm partial to Hillel's version: "What is hateful to you, do not do to others—this is the whole of Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and study." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule > It’s true that Greene is…

> I prefer this formulation: what's moral is what minimizes overall human suffering, now and in the foreseeable future.

Isn't that easier to find loopholes we wouldn't like, such as exterminating all humans to prevent any future suffering? Or generally doing all sorts of killing of people who suffer.

Re: Why Can't We All Just Get Along? Uncertain Biological Basis of Morality (2013)

#42
post #8

> One question you confront if you’re arguing for a single planetary moral philosophy: Which moral philosophy should we use? The Golden Rule is practically universal. I'm surprised it doesn't get a mention. I'm partial to Hillel's version: "What is hateful to you, do not do to others—this is the whole of Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and study." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule > It’s true that Greene is…

The idea that a universal moral system is preferable to a hierarchical or individually diversified one is itself a moral opinion which draws significantly from the Christian universalist conception of human value. That doesn’t make it right or wrong, but it certainly doesn’t make it culturally universal. The reduction of suffering is also not a universal aspiration; many thinkers believe that meaningful suffering is…

We already have separate countries to contain conflicting cultures. Isn't that enough? They all want to impose their culture on each other but are held apart by the threat of war.

Re: Why Can't We All Just Get Along? Uncertain Biological Basis of Morality (2013)

#43
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if[1] both sides compromise their morality? True, it's cutting off hydra heads to replace one big problem (should we all be individualist or all be collectivist?) with many many small ones (is this particular problem better addressed with individualistic solutions or collectivistic solutions?) but I'd say expecting that one big problem to be solved would be inhuman. [1] this hypothetical is not very. As far as I…

If either side is forced to compromise, they simply feel that the system is immoral, and they seek to change it. You can see this, for instance, in American politics. There is no agreement to compromise in general. When compromises happen, they are temporary tactical maneuvers. Afterwards, both sides will continue to fight for what they believe to be moral. (This example is a bit outdated, but just imagine American p…

Excellent point about pragmatism. (although I suspect the long run in which it fails to work[1] is the same long run in which we are all dead.)

American politics I find makes a poor example, because the first-past-the-post system conflates majorities with mandates, discouraging compromise, so it results in a perpetual political Cupid Shuffle. On the other hand, the executive committee of my government has representatives of far-right (nativist populist) and far-left (socialist) parties, as well as the various centrist parties[2], and we expect them to make compromises which all sides can accept. (Indeed, part of the job of the excomm members is to defend government decisions to their own parties.)

"One person one vote" is a practice that allows people to seek to change the system in a way that is more conducive to coexistence than "One less person one less vote".

My guess is that the portion of a population who judge cases by referring to pure moral principles tend to get outvoted by the portion of a population whose decision making is more syncretic. In any case, I don't see populations as being bimodally split between pure individualists and pure collectivists, so I would expect that adherents of both, in large enough societies, would find the system immoral: the individualist because the system uses units of coordination which are too large, and the collectivist because the system uses units of coordination which are too small.

[1] pragmatism can judge cases by the measure of "how is that working out for you?" Would it be controversial to say that a pragmatic society, faced with either taking an individualistic approach to infectious disease control and a collectivistic approach to ethanol production, or the opposite choices, would not be able to decide if the outcomes of their decisions were favourable or unfavourable?

[2] and that's just the political balance. Recently it's been pretty well gender and language balanced as well.

Re: Why Can't We All Just Get Along? Uncertain Biological Basis of Morality (2013)

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost. China believes US is the bully, but I've never heard of anybody believing the US unfairly gained.

Can you recommend any sources (selfishly I'll say preferably in a european language) for relatively mainstream chinese viewpoints? One might hope HN would provide a non-siloed venue including (one would guess, self-selecting for relatively pro-western) chinese geeks, but as far as I've seen, those who openly identify as such are discouraged.

Try Tom Fowdy, Carl Zha, and Jerry Grey (@Jerry_grey2002) on Twitter; Daniel Dumbrill, Nathan Rich, and China Teacher Brand on Youtube.

All of these lean more towards pro-China, but they're nowhere near as crazy and blindly pro-China as the /r/sino guys, and they analyze situations pretty well. All of these are open for debate, whereas on /r/sino you get banned if you're not showing absolutely loyalty (speaking from experience).

Jerry has an excellent blog too. The funny thing is, he never intended to talk about politics, but all the bad news on China since COVID-19 frustrated him so much that he began writing. https://medium.com/@jerry_grey2002

If you wanna discuss things, feel free to seek me out.

Re: Why Can't We All Just Get Along? Uncertain Biological Basis of Morality (2013)

#45
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you recommend any sources (selfishly I'll say preferably in a european language) for relatively mainstream chinese viewpoints? One might hope HN would provide a non-siloed venue including (one would guess, self-selecting for relatively pro-western) chinese geeks, but as far as I've seen, those who openly identify as such are discouraged.

This sounds crazy, but /r/sino on reddit is pretty much as close as you'll get to mainstream Chinese political thought in English. There's a very good chance many of the people there are legitimate shills for the government, but I mean, those are the state-sponsored and permitted opinions that they're presenting. People going against the grain either don't talk or get silenced. From an American perspective, the stuff…

I would not recommend /r/sino if you're looking for good discussions. It's an echo chamber. Most of the guys there are blindly pro-China, blindly anti-American. For better discussions and analysis, check my recommendations here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24035638

Re: Why Can't We All Just Get Along? Uncertain Biological Basis of Morality (2013)

#46
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds crazy, but /r/sino on reddit is pretty much as close as you'll get to mainstream Chinese political thought in English. There's a very good chance many of the people there are legitimate shills for the government, but I mean, those are the state-sponsored and permitted opinions that they're presenting. People going against the grain either don't talk or get silenced. From an American perspective, the stuff…

It does sound crazy but that's mainly because it'd be crazy for mainstream Chinese opinions to be discussed in English. Maybe r/china.

/r/china is exclusively western expats. They're the opposite of what mainstream Chinese thought is.

And based off what I see on the actual Chinese net in Chinese, /r/sino stays completely in line with the common consensus.

Re: Why Can't We All Just Get Along? Uncertain Biological Basis of Morality (2013)

#47
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does sound crazy but that's mainly because it'd be crazy for mainstream Chinese opinions to be discussed in English. Maybe r/china.

/r/china is exclusively western expats. They're the opposite of what mainstream Chinese thought is. And based off what I see on the actual Chinese net in Chinese, /r/sino stays completely in line with the common consensus.

I sure hope actual Chinese netizens aren't as polarized as the guys on /r/sino. We need the east and the west to come together, and not merely to contend on who can be the biggest bully.

Re: Why Can't We All Just Get Along? Uncertain Biological Basis of Morality (2013)

#48
post #19
post #8

> One question you confront if you’re arguing for a single planetary moral philosophy: Which moral philosophy should we use? The Golden Rule is practically universal. I'm surprised it doesn't get a mention. I'm partial to Hillel's version: "What is hateful to you, do not do to others—this is the whole of Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and study." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule > It’s true that Greene is…

The Golden Rule is too simple to be universal. We'd hate to be treated ourselves as we treat our kids, what helps someone could handicap others. We all have different modes of behaviour, included how we treat pain, harshness and transparency. Empathy would be a facet among many others for any moral system.

> We'd hate to be treated ourselves as we treat our kids

Sounds like people should treat their kids better

Re: Why Can't We All Just Get Along? Uncertain Biological Basis of Morality (2013)

#49
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you recommend any sources (selfishly I'll say preferably in a european language) for relatively mainstream chinese viewpoints? One might hope HN would provide a non-siloed venue including (one would guess, self-selecting for relatively pro-western) chinese geeks, but as far as I've seen, those who openly identify as such are discouraged.

Mainstream chinese views are probably going to be tricky as China is rather dominated by it's dictatorial leader who I think is still a fan of Mao. The new yorker had quite a good article on him https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/04/06/born-red The Chinese not under the CCP dictatorship in places like Taiwan, Singapore or the US mostly seem hard working democratic and easy going.

Everything you read, by anyone, whether it's from a Chinese or a western source, is propaganda in one way or another.

But maybe by reading Chinese sources, and seeing how different they are, will make us think more critically, and make us more immune to the propaganda we are fed at home.

Re: Why Can't We All Just Get Along? Uncertain Biological Basis of Morality (2013)

#50
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds crazy, but /r/sino on reddit is pretty much as close as you'll get to mainstream Chinese political thought in English. There's a very good chance many of the people there are legitimate shills for the government, but I mean, those are the state-sponsored and permitted opinions that they're presenting. People going against the grain either don't talk or get silenced. From an American perspective, the stuff…

I would not recommend /r/sino if you're looking for good discussions. It's an echo chamber. Most of the guys there are blindly pro-China, blindly anti-American. For better discussions and analysis, check my recommendations here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24035638

I mentioned /r/Sino because it's what you'll typically find on the Chinese internet. It is an echo chamber.

Try scrolling through weibo for an active discussion saying "Maybe Taiwan can be its own country" or "Maybe China's policy of banning all foreign discussion platforms isn't good." You might have a one off comment saying something like that, but the moment multiple people talk about it, it is guaranteed to be deleted in the best case. If the discussion gets too big, worse things will happen. Oftentimes there'll be a discussion about something offending China by simply existing, and the comments are just increasingly outlandish suggestions of how everyone needs to retaliate.

/r/sino is just a mirror of the Chinese internet experience, in English. It's like reading comments on a mainstream TV news site, but anyone who dares call out the content as BS gets their comments instantly wiped.

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