Mail delays hit Philadelphia residents, short staffed USPS struggles to keep up • Hacker News Board

Re: Mail delays hit Philadelphia residents, short staffed USPS struggles to keep up

#301

Post by MandieD » Mon, Aug 03, 2020, 5:37 AM UTC

cmurf wrote: post #102

gray_-_wolf wrote: post #4

Are there some actual studies stating that privatized mail office would be cheaper/more efficient/better service? Or is this just attempt at money grab?

Deutsche Post. The problem is that the U.S. is full of bad ideas everywhere you look and most Americans just don't care. Republicans sabotage the public institutions to make them look bad so they can say government is bad/incompentent. And when things are privately held they demand no regulations because regulations are bad/incompetent/expensive to business. At least where there are examples of successful privatizati…

Differences between Deutsche Post and the USPS:

1) They do not collect mail at houses or even street postboxes - you have to find a letterbox to drop your stamped letters, and those are less frequent than bus stops. My nearest two are about 400-500 meters away from my house in a neighborhood dense enough for an U-Bahn stop (and neither is at said U-Bahn stop). A good prompt for a walk for my able-bodied, middle-aged household, but hellaceously inconvenient for our 80+ year old neighbors.

2) A regular national letter is 0.80 EUR (US$0.94) in a country that does not have houses or small neighborhoods that are miles from anything else.

3) There are a few full service post offices that are also Postbank offices, but most parcel acceptance happens at shops that have DHL as a sideline. My city of 130,000 has two full service post offices, and one of them is only open 9:00-12:00 and 14:00-17:00 (and of course that's the one I have to pick up parcels that won't fit into the automated lockers at...)

Overall, privatized Deutsche Post is quite reliable, but its stability comes with trade-offs that the USPS is not allowed to make.

Re: Mail delays hit Philadelphia residents, short staffed USPS struggles to keep up

#302

Post by specialist » Mon, Aug 03, 2020, 5:38 AM UTC

xhkkffbf wrote: post #278

specialist wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd be more helpful if you provided specifics. Also, conflating postal balloting and COVID-19 is inappropriate. In principle, you should advocate for the Australian Ballot, which is private voting and public counting. The election integrity gold standard is casting ballots at poll sites which are tabulated onsite the moment the polls close and the results shared immediately. Some of the larger identified risks of po…

I can't go into a long list of ways to attack the various systems. But if you go above, I link to two different stories. Mail in voting is just much easier to hack.

Those two links do not imply what you think they imply. Those are problems with registrations, not ballots.

If you truly consider problems with the VRDBs a high priority, then advocate for nationwide automatic universal voter registration, like every other mature democracy has done, thereby eliminating the problem.

Further, I really do think you should compile an exhaustive list of all the problems and attack vectors you've found. Start by comparing and contrasting the procedures from misc jurisdictions. Observe some elections. Attend all the canvassing board meetings for an entire election cycle. Interview election administrators. Etc.

What you learn may surprise you.

Re: Mail delays hit Philadelphia residents, short staffed USPS struggles to keep up

#303

Post by fredophile » Mon, Aug 03, 2020, 6:32 AM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #285

youareostriches wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Voting is not a good way to get what you want. Your vote will have essentially no impact on the outcome of the election. Voting is the most minimal way to participate democratically. Much more meaningful are advocating for your needs to elected representatives, speaking out publicly, and organizing/attending demonstrations. But if you want to give up democracy to live under a dictatorship, certainly don't pretend t…

> But if you want to give up democracy to live under a dictatorship, certainly don't pretend that you actually speak for anyone other than yourself. Please don't do the Reddit thing. The argument wasn't "we need dictatorship", it was "it's easier to switch commercial providers than governments if you're unhappy".

Not all commercial providers are easy to switch. I can't easily switch the company that provides power to my condo. For people with natural gas it's usually not easy to switch that either. If I don't like the property management company my HOA uses it isn't something I can switch on my own. Tonnes of places across the US don't have options for switching high speed internet providers. Switching any of the services I mentioned could require moving, sometimes a considerable distance, for plenty of people.

Re: Mail delays hit Philadelphia residents, short staffed USPS struggles to keep up

#304

Post by arp242 » Mon, Aug 03, 2020, 7:32 AM UTC

throwaway5752 wrote: post #36

nemothekid wrote: post #10

Incredibly frustrating to get mail by USPS over the past couple months and even more frustrating to know this is an intentional kneecapping of the USPS by the administration in order "prove" government services are inefficient to privatize the USPS

Its not a point about government effectiveness or efficiency. They kneecapped the USPS when they forced prefunding of pension liabilities ( https://www.cnbc.com/2011/10/24/the-truth-about-the-post-off... ). They had more legislative leverage prior to 2018, so they could have done all this much earlier. It is not possible to honestly discuss this in a meaningful way without acknowledging it's 3 months out from a presi…

> It the closest thing they can legally do to suppress voting turnout, and it's a deliberate strategy to win the election by reducing the franchise.

I haven't followed any of this story and this is the first time I'm reading up on it, but why would this increase the chances of Trump winning? Wouldn't restricting mail-in voting affect both sides roughly equally? That's what I would expect, anyway, but perhaps I'm missing something?

Re: Mail delays hit Philadelphia residents, short staffed USPS struggles to keep up

#305

Post by arp242 » Mon, Aug 03, 2020, 7:34 AM UTC

skybrian wrote: post #32

nemothekid wrote: post #10

Incredibly frustrating to get mail by USPS over the past couple months and even more frustrating to know this is an intentional kneecapping of the USPS by the administration in order "prove" government services are inefficient to privatize the USPS

Demand is way up due to the pandemic. Amazon hired 175,000 temporary workers to keep up with demand [1]. All the Trump adminstration had to do to cause a problem was not hire any extra help and disallow overtime. [1] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/amazon-reaches-1-million-w...

A business[1] getting in to financial trouble because of massive increase in customers is indeed a curious affair.

[1]: Which the USPS is not, but let's be flexible with the term.

Re: Mail delays hit Philadelphia residents, short staffed USPS struggles to keep up

#306

Post by arp242 » Mon, Aug 03, 2020, 7:50 AM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #211

js2 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like to leave political comments here, but this gets my goad: > it shows the culpability of most of the elected officials, from both parties. The "both parties" remark drives me crazy, as if they are equally culpable in how we got to today, or equally culpable in their current leadership of America, so let's just back up for a moment. No Democratic president has won a majority of the white vote since 1964. Th…

> And then, Cass thinks, Republicans will face a choice: to return to a “pre-Trump” consensus, or to build a “post-Trump future” — one that, he hopes, will prevent more Trump-like politicians from rising. There's also a third option: double down on Trumpism / Tea Party politics and voter suppression/manipulation. Even with the current crisis and Trump being essentially a proto-fascist, he has a 41% approval rating. M…

Indeed; Trump isn't some sort of accidental quirk that got in to office by some weird accident, it's the continuation and escalation of a pattern that has been going on for decades.

If Trump will lose in November that won't be the end if it, it might be the start of of a healing process and it's encouraging to see people like Cass are actively working on this, but I fear Trump won't be the last of his kind getting elected to office.

I hope to hell I'm wrong. It's important to not be defeatist about this, but it's even more important to not declare victory after President Biden gets elected.

Re: Mail delays hit Philadelphia residents, short staffed USPS struggles to keep up

#307

Post by arp242 » Mon, Aug 03, 2020, 8:02 AM UTC

minerjoe wrote: post #280

dane-pgp wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't downvote you, but I suspect that some people reacted negatively to your strategy of "don't vote, then the people with power will feel so embarrassed at the lack of credibility of the system that they will work to regain people's trust". Also, if the comment above is your "toned down" wording, I'm glad I didn't read the original version, or I probably would have downvoted you.

Who are you quoting there? Putting a few too many words in my mouth. To many of us, the system has lost all cedibility, and voting is signalling just the opposite of that. Nothing about embarrassing anyone. No way to regain people trust at this point. We're too far gone.

I've also not voted once, in a local referendum in my country because I felt the entire thing was instigated under a fraudulent pretext just to stir up shit and had no legitimacy. I get where you're coming from.

But ... have you noticed who is in office? The stakes are too high to make these sort of principled stands right now. Hell, I'm not even talking about the politics of it: four more years of Trump will mean four more years of a deeply toxic person in office bringing the entire level of discourse of the entire country down. Literally everyone of every political affiliation will be hurt by this, except perhaps die-hard anarchists who would prefer to see the entire society collapse (and Trump is certainly a step in that direction).

Re: Mail delays hit Philadelphia residents, short staffed USPS struggles to keep up

#308

Post by arp242 » Mon, Aug 03, 2020, 8:24 AM UTC

angst_ridden wrote: post #21

gray_-_wolf wrote: post #4

Are there some actual studies stating that privatized mail office would be cheaper/more efficient/better service? Or is this just attempt at money grab?

I don't know of any study showing they are more efficient, but if they were, they would achive that efficiency by refusing to serve difficult markets. As part of their charter, USPS provides coverage to remote and rural areas that can't be easily served and that private services neglect. Also, the USPS has had potentially businesss-killing policies legislated into their finances by a hostile Congress, like requring p…

In the Netherlands the postal service was privatized over 20 years ago, but they're still beholden to various special laws which says they need to service everyone, need to deliver mail within a fixed timeframe, etc. Similar rules apply to the privatized railways, telephone system, health insurance, etc.

I don't really know if any of this was a good move or not – I'm too young to remember the pre-privatisation era – but overall it seems to work reasonably well; certainly not as dysfunctional as the USPS seems to be. Either way, my point is that privatisation doesn't need to lead to the USPS refusing to serve difficult markets.

Re: Mail delays hit Philadelphia residents, short staffed USPS struggles to keep up

#309

Post by xhkkffbf » Mon, Aug 03, 2020, 11:32 AM UTC

specialist wrote: post #302

xhkkffbf wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't go into a long list of ways to attack the various systems. But if you go above, I link to two different stories. Mail in voting is just much easier to hack.

Those two links do not imply what you think they imply. Those are problems with registrations, not ballots. If you truly consider problems with the VRDBs a high priority, then advocate for nationwide automatic universal voter registration, like every other mature democracy has done, thereby eliminating the problem. Further, I really do think you should compile an exhaustive list of all the problems and attack vectors…

But they do. It's still fraud on the system. If you require people to go in person, there's only so much time in the day. Election workers will recognize them returning to vote with a different name. Those limitations don't affect mail in fraudsters.

Re: Mail delays hit Philadelphia residents, short staffed USPS struggles to keep up

#310

Post by specialist » Mon, Aug 03, 2020, 1:26 PM UTC

xhkkffbf wrote: post #309

specialist wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those two links do not imply what you think they imply. Those are problems with registrations, not ballots. If you truly consider problems with the VRDBs a high priority, then advocate for nationwide automatic universal voter registration, like every other mature democracy has done, thereby eliminating the problem. Further, I really do think you should compile an exhaustive list of all the problems and attack vectors…

But they do. It's still fraud on the system. If you require people to go in person, there's only so much time in the day. Election workers will recognize them returning to vote with a different name. Those limitations don't affect mail in fraudsters.

Ya. I encourage you to learn how real world election administration is done.

Ballot stuffing just isn't possible with the procedures used in King County and thru out Washington State.

With poll sites, everyone had to sign in a poll book to receive a ballot.

With postal ballots, they use ballot tracking and reconciliation reports.

So. There are many valid election integrity criticisms. You haven't mentioned any of them yet.