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Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

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Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#141

Post by gexla »

cactus2093 wrote: post #89
Eyght wrote: post #9

I feel like the Chinese style social score system won't have enough support in government for most countries, but we'll receive a decentralized version anyway through corporate overreach. Also, it's always amusing to arrive at an article about data collection and be greeted by this: https://i.imgur.com/d4Z4sdd.png

The credit system in the US is already a pretty horrific version of this, and nobody really seems to care and it’s been like this for decades. And it’s not even just used for credit anymore, renting an apartment now usually requires a credit check. I had thought credit karma and similar services were at least adding transparency to the industry but was recently in for a rude awakening when trying to get preapproval f…

I don't know if this is still the case, but banks at one time would deny you based on poor credit history also. And so, you get to stay in the "unbanked" category which is just another factor which may keep you in poverty.

The FinTech industry has since grown to the point that being unbanked doesn't need to be a thing anymore. It's easy to pick up a prepaid debit card which you can receive ACH payments on.

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#142

Post by gruez »

syshum wrote: post #134
gruez wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Renting an apartment is credit, I am not sure why you view it has something other than credit? >The owner of the property is loaning (credit) the use of their property to you for X amount of time in exchange for N amount of dollars, payable over monthly installments Not really. In most places you have to pay first and last month's rent, which means you're paying for the service before it's rendered. Therefore they'r…

Well there are a few problems with this 1. I would like you to define "most places" as for the first 35 years of my life I was a renter and in that time I only ever had to pay "First and last" in one instance. Most of the time it was The first months rent, and security deposit(which was often something small like $100 or $200), no "last months rent" so around here it was not "most places" 2. Even if you use that as a…

I'm not sure I follow here. The transaction might be structured as the landlord giving you 12 months of housing service at the time of signing of the contract (or when the lease starts) and you paying him in installments of 12 payments (with the first one or two upfront), but you don't "take delivery" of the service all at once. It's given to you on a continuous basis. Therefore, at any moment during the 12 months, you don't owe the landlord anything.

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#143

Post by gruez »

bsanr2 wrote: post #137
gruez wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Credit reporting agencies and financial institutions commit fraud all the time. They call it identity theft so that you think it is your fault instead of their fault. No one would care about a bank giving a loan to a person that was impersonating them except for the fact that the bank (credit card, mattress store, car dealership, etc) commits fraud and reports to the credit agency that you have defaulted on your loa…

>If some guy walks into a bank and claim they're you and they believe it, the banks aren't gaining anything. They would have just sold a loan. >If anything, they lost money. Can't they sell the defaulted loan to collections? >Lax security practices are negligence at best. Systemic, known, and long-standing negligence speaks to intention.

>They would have just sold a loan.

Yeah, that's what their books say, but that doesn't necessarily match reality. In reality they gave $1000 in cash to someone, and their expected return on that is a fraction of that. Same logic if you bought paid $800 for bonds with face value of $1000, but unknown to you, the bonds are actually junk bonds with a expected value (factoring in repayment and default) of $500. In that case your paper gains are $200, but in reality you actually lost $300.

>Can't they sell the defaulted loan to collections?

They gave the bad guy a loan for $1000. They're out $1000. They sell the loan to collections for $300, they're still out $700.

>Systemic, known, and long-standing negligence speaks to intention.

Security exists on a spectrum, and there are trade-offs to be made. Clearly the banks don't have an interest in selling fraudulent loans, and putting up too much barriers when it comes to authentication also has costs.

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#144

Post by njarboe »

gruez wrote: post #128
njarboe wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Credit reporting agencies and financial institutions commit fraud all the time. They call it identity theft so that you think it is your fault instead of their fault. No one would care about a bank giving a loan to a person that was impersonating them except for the fact that the bank (credit card, mattress store, car dealership, etc) commits fraud and reports to the credit agency that you have defaulted on your loan…

>Credit reporting agencies and financial institutions commit fraud all the time. They call it identity theft so that you think it is your fault instead of their fault. No one would care about a bank giving a loan to a person that was impersonating them except for the fact that the bank (credit card, mattress store, car dealership, etc) commits fraud and reports to the credit agency that you have defaulted on your loa…

Maybe a better way of say this is that the bank is committing libel when they report to a credit bureau that you have defaulted on a loan when you have not. They say you did something that you did not do and the fact of them declaring that lie does you damage. The important thing is that "identity theft" should be a problem for the entity that made the loan to a criminal and not the person that was impersonated. Call it "bank libel" when someones credit score is ruined by a bank that gives a loan to the wrong person and one is closer to describing the truth of the situation.

Edit: mindslight mentions in this thread that: "The 'Fair' Credit Reporting Act explicitly immunizes the surveillance bureaus against the tort of libel". Amazing.

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#145

Post by mindslight »

njarboe wrote: post #108
lotsofpulp wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can check your credit report for free, as required by law, but nobody is required to tell you your credit score. You can also basically just pay to remove many things from your credit report. There is no “the credit score”. Any lender is free to use whatever scoring algorithm they like. And they do. Some lenders may choose to use certain scores for certain things, but underwriting has no obligation to use one s…

Credit reporting agencies and financial institutions commit fraud all the time. They call it identity theft so that you think it is your fault instead of their fault. No one would care about a bank giving a loan to a person that was impersonating them except for the fact that the bank (credit card, mattress store, car dealership, etc) commits fraud and reports to the credit agency that you have defaulted on your loan…

That's not fraud. The tort you're looking for is libel. The "Fair" Credit Reporting Act explicitly immunizes the surveillance bureaus against the tort of libel. This is actually another instance of regulatory capture.

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#146

Post by [deleted] »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #138
bsanr2 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If some guy walks into a bank and claim they're you and they believe it, the banks aren't gaining anything. They would have just sold a loan. >If anything, they lost money. Can't they sell the defaulted loan to collections? >Lax security practices are negligence at best. Systemic, known, and long-standing negligence speaks to intention.

> Can't they sell the defaulted loan to collections? Why would anyone pay face value for a defaulted loan?

[deleted]

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#147

Post by njarboe »

mindslight wrote: post #145
njarboe wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Credit reporting agencies and financial institutions commit fraud all the time. They call it identity theft so that you think it is your fault instead of their fault. No one would care about a bank giving a loan to a person that was impersonating them except for the fact that the bank (credit card, mattress store, car dealership, etc) commits fraud and reports to the credit agency that you have defaulted on your loan…

That's not fraud . The tort you're looking for is libel . The "Fair" Credit Reporting Act explicitly immunizes the surveillance bureaus against the tort of libel. This is actually another instance of regulatory capture.

Yes, you are right. It's libel.

Wow, I did not know that the surveillance bureaus are exempt from libel. What an incredible law against the interests of the people. That explains why I've never heard about class action suites against them. I'll have to read up on it. Thanks for the info.

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#148

Post by Shared404 »

chordalkeyboard wrote: post #135
dcewcrrec wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've entered an awkward twilight zone where companies can do what they want a la Laissez-faire capitalism, which means they can also do exactly the same thing a government would do at exactly the same scale and with similar levels of authority. It is a grey area that hasn't yet been stopped by laws because sometimes companies are so big they influence the laws themselves.

Everything you have said except for the last phrase “ sometimes companies are so big they influence the laws themselves“ is false. There are a fantastic amount of regulations in every western country today, many of which are applied arbitrarily or with enough discretion that they are essentially arbitrary. Even the most massive corporations market caps are dwarfed by the monthly spending of government. The only cases…

Just enough regulations to get the worst of unregulated and regulated capitalism, at least if my understanding is correct.

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#149

Post by awslattery »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #126
awslattery wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Pay for delete" in collections reported has transitioned from a rarity, to most RMA agencies offering it directly in their initial letter and websites. None of the credit bureaus have pushed against this publicly in the last 3 years of it being more widely adopted.

If the owner of the debt accepts a lower cash payment in exchange for canceling the debt, I don’t see how that’s a problem for the public. It’s a problem for lenders, but seems like they’ve caught onto it: https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/finance/pay-for-delete

In my experience, I've been able to settle for less than full balanced owed (the collection agencies buy them by the bundle for pennies on the dollar), and all negative tradelines removed (original charge off and collection account) under new (2018ish) publicly listed policies of doing so.

This approach is mainly used by third-party debt buyers, like Encore/Midland/Cavalry. And doesn't apply to public judgments, if they decide to pursue that route. Thankfully, I have managed to avoid that in my credit recovery journey.

First-party (original creditor) will laugh or tell you it isn't possible if you ask for a PFD settlement, but there are documented instances of it happening as early as 2010 in my research for "making the case" before these policies started to become more widespread.

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#150

Post by cactus2093 »

syshum wrote: post #118
cactus2093 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The credit system in the US is already a pretty horrific version of this, and nobody really seems to care and it’s been like this for decades. And it’s not even just used for credit anymore, renting an apartment now usually requires a credit check. I had thought credit karma and similar services were at least adding transparency to the industry but was recently in for a rude awakening when trying to get preapproval f…

>> And it’s not even just used for credit anymore, renting an apartment now usually requires a credit check. Renting an apartment is credit, I am not sure why you view it has something other than credit? The owner of the property is loaning (credit) the use of their property to you for X amount of time in exchange for N amount of dollars, payable over monthly installments How is that not credit? A better example is e…

Renting is not credit because you don’t get the thing all upfront and then pay for it later. If fact if anything, the renter is giving the landlord up to one month of rent as credit because rent is usually due on the first of the month in order to be able to live there that month. But that’s just sort of an artifact of the discretization of the payment, as far as the arrangement goes there is an ongoing equal trade of values between both parties.

As far as banks being able to make their own credit decision, that’s all fine and good but then they pretend like that’s not what’s happening. If I ask a bank why they denied my loan, they won’t tell me about the specific activities I’ve done that prove me un creditworthy (sometimes I can press to ask what they can see on my report and if they’re feeling nice they may tell me, but they don’t have to). The fact that there’s no party you can ask to just evaluate ahead of time what the result will be, or to see what i can do to get myself above the threshold, so the individual is always at a disadvantage of information asymmetry, is what makes the system bogus. And then on top of that, just the act of seeing if you qualify for the thing lowers your credit score further!

If I’ve been burned by this as a high paid tech worker with just a couple of mistakes in my autopay settings in the past, I can’t even imagine how big of a problem this is for people who have had actual hardships.

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