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The Fantasy and the Cyberpunk Futurism of Singapore

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Re: The Fantasy and the Cyberpunk Futurism of Singapore

#51

Post by arugulum »

Mizza wrote: post #6

Singapore is a weird place. During the flight, the stewardesses walked around and handed everybody something - I was expecting a wet towel, but in fact it was a card in multiple languages which says "If you are about to bring any amount of drugs into the country, you are going to be executed." Lovely first impression to set the tone. Other than the omnipresent paranoia, the thing that struck me as the most bizarre is…

I'm struggling to understand on what basis you're saying "almost nothing is oriented toward children". For instance, how many schools did you visit during your two weeks there? Or what are you considering to be "oriented toward children"?

Re: The Fantasy and the Cyberpunk Futurism of Singapore

#52

Post by Apocryphon »

Causality1 wrote: post #5

"Cyberpunk dystopia" seems very inaccurate to me. Nothing whatsoever about Singapore is "punk" in any sense of the word. "Cyber-utopian" is a better descriptor, with the emphasis on the traditional connotations of the word utopian, that being an aim for perfection at significant cost to principals that don't fit the vision.

Well, the ruling corporate authority in a cyberpunk state isn't very punk, either. It exists as an edifice to be opposed or exploited by such a rebellious subculture. Maybe Singapore is a cybernetic dystopia in search of a cyberpunk movement.

Also, the street samurai/cowboy hacker trope isn't ubiquitous to every cyberpunk work. Ghost in the Shell, a seminal work, is about law enforcement officers who uphold the state, and occasionally chase down cyberpunk anarchist hackers. (Blade Runner is much the same.) You can have the trappings of the genre without all elements of it.

Re: The Fantasy and the Cyberpunk Futurism of Singapore

#53

Post by arugulum »

api wrote: post #21
Mizza wrote: post #6

Singapore is a weird place. During the flight, the stewardesses walked around and handed everybody something - I was expecting a wet towel, but in fact it was a card in multiple languages which says "If you are about to bring any amount of drugs into the country, you are going to be executed." Lovely first impression to set the tone. Other than the omnipresent paranoia, the thing that struck me as the most bizarre is…

Singapore is in my opinion the world's scariest dystopia. There are many dystopias, but few of them are anything but. Nobody moves to North Korea, and the dystopian aspects of other less thoroughly awful places are things everyone complains about and few want to copy. Singapore is scary because it's a dystopia with many desirable characteristics. It's a dystopia with curb appeal, one that could be sold to people. The…

It is hard to take a comment like this in good faith. You make multiple references to Singapore being a dystopia with zero justification. You make several strongly negative analogies of Singapore ("deal with the devil", "costs you your soul", "zoo for homo sapiens") with the thinnest of connections.

Singapore is far from perfect. It is horrendous on gay rights. It struggles with inequality. The amount of power resting in Government and political entities, even if currently not fully exploited, makes me incredibly uneasy. And it has many other issues too. But it is far from the fictionalized robotic totalitarian state you want to pretend it is.

Re: The Fantasy and the Cyberpunk Futurism of Singapore

#54

Post by api »

arugulum wrote: post #53
api wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore is in my opinion the world's scariest dystopia. There are many dystopias, but few of them are anything but. Nobody moves to North Korea, and the dystopian aspects of other less thoroughly awful places are things everyone complains about and few want to copy. Singapore is scary because it's a dystopia with many desirable characteristics. It's a dystopia with curb appeal, one that could be sold to people. The…

It is hard to take a comment like this in good faith. You make multiple references to Singapore being a dystopia with zero justification. You make several strongly negative analogies of Singapore ("deal with the devil", "costs you your soul", "zoo for homo sapiens") with the thinnest of connections. Singapore is far from perfect. It is horrendous on gay rights. It struggles with inequality. The amount of power restin…

Any place that executes people for minor crimes or non-crimes is pretty awful on human rights issues. Couple that with its status as a single party state, corporal punishment for minor infractions, the fact that it is awful on LGBT issues, and so on, and I don't need to know much more. I don't care how clean the streets are if that's what it costs.

Also: Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew, often considered the father of the place, was a fairly virulent "scientific" racist: https://lkyonrace.wordpress.com

Sure, other places are much worse. Sure, many places like the USA have their own huge issues. That's "whataboutism."

As I said, the thing that makes Singapore almost alarming to me isn't that it's the worst place for human rights. It's not even close to that. The thing that bothers me is that it looks like it works and serves as an advertisement for better living through totalitarianism. Most other places with awful human rights records look like places with awful human rights records.

I'll say it again: if what Singapore does is the cost of clean streets and virtually zero crime, I'll take a filthy slum. Fortunately that doesn't seem to be the case. I currently live somewhere that's far less punitive and it isn't a filthy slum.

Re: The Fantasy and the Cyberpunk Futurism of Singapore

#55

Post by arugulum »

api wrote: post #54
arugulum wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is hard to take a comment like this in good faith. You make multiple references to Singapore being a dystopia with zero justification. You make several strongly negative analogies of Singapore ("deal with the devil", "costs you your soul", "zoo for homo sapiens") with the thinnest of connections. Singapore is far from perfect. It is horrendous on gay rights. It struggles with inequality. The amount of power restin…

Any place that executes people for minor crimes or non-crimes is pretty awful on human rights issues. Couple that with its status as a single party state, corporal punishment for minor infractions, the fact that it is awful on LGBT issues, and so on, and I don't need to know much more. I don't care how clean the streets are if that's what it costs. Also: Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew, often considered the father of the pl…

>Any place that executes people for minor crimes or non-crimes is pretty awful on human rights issues.

I am going to press you on this. Which non-crimes lead to capital punishment? And on what basis do you get to decide whether a crime is "minor" or "major"?

As for "whataboutism", that defense doesn't hold when you label something as "the scariest dystopia". When you use a superlative, that's exactly the point where even single counterexamples matter.

EDIT: You edited your comment to add more substance, so I will too.

>Couple that with its status as a single party state Which just got dealt its biggest blow in 50 years.

>the fact that it is awful on LGBT issues I raised this before you edited your comment.

>Also: Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew is a racist: https://lkyonrace.wordpress.com Non-sequitur. We have mentioned Lee Kuan Yew in no part of the discussion thus far.

>The thing that bothers me is that it looks like it works and serves as an advertisement for better living through totalitarianism. And you've not justified the label of "totalitarianism", just like you haven't justified your label of "dystopia".

Re: The Fantasy and the Cyberpunk Futurism of Singapore

#56

Post by api »

arugulum wrote: post #55
api wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any place that executes people for minor crimes or non-crimes is pretty awful on human rights issues. Couple that with its status as a single party state, corporal punishment for minor infractions, the fact that it is awful on LGBT issues, and so on, and I don't need to know much more. I don't care how clean the streets are if that's what it costs. Also: Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew, often considered the father of the pl…

>Any place that executes people for minor crimes or non-crimes is pretty awful on human rights issues. I am going to press you on this. Which non-crimes lead to capital punishment? And on what basis do you get to decide whether a crime is "minor" or "major"? As for "whataboutism", that defense doesn't hold when you label something as "the scariest dystopia". When you use a superlative, that's exactly the point where…

Having weed?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Singapor...

I live in a place that recently legalized marijuana. Nothing bad happened. The result proves quite conclusively that this is a non-crime.

While I'm not convinced on blanket drug legalization, especially of certain very dangerous drugs, I can't justify the death penalty for any drug crime. Of course I have a tough time with the death penalty in general, and can only ethically justify it for the crime of deliberate murder.

Singapore seems to believe quite emphatically that the ends justify the means. This is just a large scale political version of naked psychopathy: "if I get the outcome I want, it's okay." Any student of the 20th century knows where this goes. The fact that Singapore seems to exercise some restraint, refusing to follow this principle to its logical end, doesn't justify it.

Re: The Fantasy and the Cyberpunk Futurism of Singapore

#58

Post by arugulum »

api wrote: post #56
arugulum wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Any place that executes people for minor crimes or non-crimes is pretty awful on human rights issues. I am going to press you on this. Which non-crimes lead to capital punishment? And on what basis do you get to decide whether a crime is "minor" or "major"? As for "whataboutism", that defense doesn't hold when you label something as "the scariest dystopia". When you use a superlative, that's exactly the point where…

Having weed? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Singapor... I live in a place that recently legalized marijuana. Nothing bad happened. The result proves quite conclusively that this is a non-crime. While I'm not convinced on blanket drug legalization, especially of certain very dangerous drugs, I can't justify the death penalty for any drug crime. Of course I have a tough time with the death penalty…

>The result proves quite conclusively that this is a non-crime.

You've just invented a new definition of "non-crime", which appears to be "did not have any apparent impact when decriminalized in a different legal jurisdiction". Most people would take the definition non-crime to simply be "not a crime", which bringing marijuana into Singapore is.

Re: The Fantasy and the Cyberpunk Futurism of Singapore

#59

Post by JSavageOne »

RyJones wrote: post #2

Strange place. I was amazed how many homeless there are - which will be denied, when mentioned. I guess the people sleeping on the walkway to Louis Vuitton island were not homeless? The sleeping people in the underpasses, sleeping under signs saying not to sleep there also?

I was in Singapore for 10 days and don't recall seeing any homeless people.

Then again as an American who's lived in cities like NYC/SF, no other first world country even comes close to the amount of homelessness we have in the U.S.

Re: The Fantasy and the Cyberpunk Futurism of Singapore

#60

Post by czcar »

RyJones wrote: post #2

Strange place. I was amazed how many homeless there are - which will be denied, when mentioned. I guess the people sleeping on the walkway to Louis Vuitton island were not homeless? The sleeping people in the underpasses, sleeping under signs saying not to sleep there also?

A point of note - I do believe there a homeless in Singapore. However, I believe what you're referring to is likely workers napping around lunch time. This is very common with a lot of the people who work outside in the day time, under trees, on sidewalks etc.,
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