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We’re a Lot Better at Fighting Cancer Than We Realized

cshl.nautil.us

31–40 of 142 posts

Re: We’re a Lot Better at Fighting Cancer Than We Realized

#31

From a science and pharmaceutical perspective, maybe. As the partner of someone in the US dealing with stage 4 cancer in their 40s, who has two hospitals fighting with each other over whether to keep using a chemo drug that's sent them into anaphylactic shock twice in two rounds of chemo because it's _more convenient_ for the infusion clinic to administer, and all of that currently held up by pre-approval from a rela…

U.S. cancer treatment is the best in the world. The greatest research, innovation and results[1] happen in America. These are products of American Society. American Society is actually pretty good at fighting this disease. We devote huge resources to preventing, diagnosing and treating and have made great progress. The CAR T-Cell innovations are very promising and American research is making it work. Families often f…

> Specifically, the U.S. has the best cancer survival rates in the world.

This is a misunderstanding of what "5 year survival rate" means. You're missing "lead time bias", and "over diagnosis bias".

From Risk Savvy by Gerd Gigerenzer

--begin quote

While running for president of the United States, former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani said in a 2007 campaign advertisement:1

"I had prostate cancer, 5, 6 years ago. My chance of surviving prostate cancer—and thank God, I was cured of it—in the United States? Eighty-two percent. My chance of surviving prostate cancer in England? Only 44 percent under socialized medicine."

For Giuliani, this meant that he was lucky to be living in New York and not in York, since his chances of surviving prostate cancer appeared to be twice as high. That was big news. It was also a big mistake. Despite the impressive difference in survival rates, the percentage of men who died of prostate cancer was about the same in the United States and the UK.2 How can survival be so different when mortality is the same?

The answer is that when it comes to screening, differences in survival rates don’t tell us anything about differences in mortality rates. In fact, over the past fifty years, changes in five-year survival for the most common solid tumors had no connection with changes in mortality.3 There are two reasons.

How Rudy Giuliani Was Misled

The first reason is called lead time bias. Imagine two groups of men with invasive prostate cancer. The first consists of men in Britain, where screening for prostate-specific antigens (PSA) is not routinely used and most cancer is diagnosed by symptoms. The second group is made up of men in the United States, where routine use of the test began in the late 1980s and spread rapidly, despite the lack of evidence that it saves lives.

In the British group, prostate cancer is detected by symptoms, say at age sixty-seven (Figure 10-1 top). All of these men die at age seventy. Everyone survived only three years, so the five-year survival is 0 percent. In the U.S. group, prostate cancer is detected early by PSA tests, say at age sixty, but they too die at age seventy (Figure 10-1 bottom). According to the statistics, everyone in that group survived ten years and thus their five-year survival rate is 100 percent. The survival rate has improved dramatically, although nothing has changed about the time of death: Whether diagnosed at age sixty-seven or at age sixty, all patients die at age seventy. Survival rates are inflated by setting the time of diagnosis earlier. Contrary to what many people have been told, there is no evidence that early detection and subsequent treatment of prostate cancer prolongs or saves lives.

The second reason why survival rates tell us nothing about living longer is overdiagnosis bias. Overdiagnosis happens when doctors detect abnormalities that will not cause symptoms or early death. For instance, a patient might correctly be diagnosed with cancer but because the cancer develops so slowly, the patient would never have noticed it in his lifetime. These cancers are called slow-growing or nonprogressive cancers.4 PSA screening detects both progressive and nonprogressive cancers but, like most other cancer screening tests, cannot tell the difference between them. Figure 10-2 (top) shows 1,000 British men with progressive cancer who do not undergo screening. After five years, 440 are still alive, which results in a survival rate of 44 percent. Figure 10-2 (bottom) shows 1,000 Americans who participate in PSA screening and have progressive cancer. The test, however, also finds 2,000 people with nonprogressive cancers—meaning that they will not die from them. By adding these 2,000 to the 440 who survived progressive cancer, the survival rate leaps to 81 percent. Even though the survival rate increases dramatically, the number of men who die remains exactly the same.

Re: We’re a Lot Better at Fighting Cancer Than We Realized

#33
post #10

I was forced to dive headlong into understanding cancer therapy 2 1/2 years ago. It was obvious at the time that this was the correct direction to head, developing an entire therapeutic ecosystem to give the body every possible advantage and assail the disease with every possible disadvantage in order to get the desired outcome. However, what I saw was a rather bizarre and disturbing fetish in the pharmaceutical and…

Monotherapies? The big thing for cancer treatment in the last decade has been targeted combination therapies. The anti-PDLs are a great example (and have really improved outcomes) and they are mostly layered on top of existing treatments.

Re: We’re a Lot Better at Fighting Cancer Than We Realized

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

U.S. cancer treatment is the best in the world. The greatest research, innovation and results[1] happen in America. These are products of American Society. American Society is actually pretty good at fighting this disease. We devote huge resources to preventing, diagnosing and treating and have made great progress. The CAR T-Cell innovations are very promising and American research is making it work. Families often f…

That doesn't mean that the system isn't dysfunctional. Merely that it's less dysfunctional than elsewhere.

Or that its excellence in treating cancers is biased towards certain populations. I dare say cancer treatment in people 65+ is bound to be better. And higher life expectancy in general seem to point to that. The cancers of the elderly are slower growing, in many demographic scenarios those people have more money & voice to get better treatment, and because they're old and often have comorbidities the doctor is more likely to diagnose them.

Contrast this with young mothers who are breastfeeding or have just finished breast feeding and go to their doctor complaining of discomfort or oddities in their breasts only to have it 'diagnosed' as a blocked duct when it's actually cancer. Or a young man complaining of neck or back pain that ends up being a cancer but doctors have been trained to effectively screen out back pain as a common complaint. Or chronic fatigue, etc. etc. They look young, fit... they're probably just anxious.

After watching friends or family die this way, with cancers undiagnosed until they proceeded to stage 4 despite multiple queries to their doctors, it's absolutely terrifying. You start to question every ailment you have.

So you really wonder how much the fact that baby boomers are still the dominant demographic group is altering the numbers. We might just be good at treating cancers in the elderly and that has shifted survival statistics.

Re: We’re a Lot Better at Fighting Cancer Than We Realized

#35
post #23

There is a tendency to fight our way out of every problem. But what we truly need is to accept the problem, take responsibility and look for the root cause. That is true “fighting”. But most try to destroy the symptoms so they can continue their path and usually continue the root cause. Of course finding the root cause is not easy and it takes one to study oneself I highly recommend the following book to everyone (in…

[deleted]

Re: We’re a Lot Better at Fighting Cancer Than We Realized

#36
post #16

From a science and pharmaceutical perspective, maybe. As the partner of someone in the US dealing with stage 4 cancer in their 40s, who has two hospitals fighting with each other over whether to keep using a chemo drug that's sent them into anaphylactic shock twice in two rounds of chemo because it's _more convenient_ for the infusion clinic to administer, and all of that currently held up by pre-approval from a rela…

I'm curious about what kind of cancer masquerades as iron deficiency, an infection, and a benign tumor?

acute myeloid leukemia

Re: We’re a Lot Better at Fighting Cancer Than We Realized

#37

From a science and pharmaceutical perspective, maybe. As the partner of someone in the US dealing with stage 4 cancer in their 40s, who has two hospitals fighting with each other over whether to keep using a chemo drug that's sent them into anaphylactic shock twice in two rounds of chemo because it's _more convenient_ for the infusion clinic to administer, and all of that currently held up by pre-approval from a rela…

your partner is lucky to have an advocate to help navigate a very frustrating system. Take notes, get your questions answered, and keep records of every visit/drug/person.

Re: We’re a Lot Better at Fighting Cancer Than We Realized

#38

From a science and pharmaceutical perspective, maybe. As the partner of someone in the US dealing with stage 4 cancer in their 40s, who has two hospitals fighting with each other over whether to keep using a chemo drug that's sent them into anaphylactic shock twice in two rounds of chemo because it's _more convenient_ for the infusion clinic to administer, and all of that currently held up by pre-approval from a rela…

If I learned one thing from fighting a (not cancer) disease, it's that you have to be the one responsible for your own recovery. Don't just sit there and say "please save me doc!" You better start reading about the latest research 6 hours a day, make massive comparison charts about treatment options, find the best doctors you can and get opinions from all of them, network with people going through what you are for su…

Caveat emptor is the status quo, not the ideal.

Re: We’re a Lot Better at Fighting Cancer Than We Realized

#39

From a science and pharmaceutical perspective, maybe. As the partner of someone in the US dealing with stage 4 cancer in their 40s, who has two hospitals fighting with each other over whether to keep using a chemo drug that's sent them into anaphylactic shock twice in two rounds of chemo because it's _more convenient_ for the infusion clinic to administer, and all of that currently held up by pre-approval from a rela…

My mom was just told she has likely incurable pancreatic cancer, so I’m right there with you.

It’s frustrating because my sense is either due to doctors desensitization, or due to economics of cancer treatment, my mom feels like a commodity to them. Not a focus. As my mom said “this probably happened because they didn’t do chemo for 4 months before surgery”. I get a sense of “shrug” or business as usual from the docs. Now its moves into ongoing treatment. Because it’s the right thing? Because the hospital makes money from more chemo?

The whole thing leaves me feeling rather cynical

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