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Nuclear Power is Safest Way to Make Electricity

washingtonpost.com

111–120 of 262 posts

Re: Nuclear Power is Safest Way to Make Electricity

#111
What about Wave Power? It's pretty safe and has a very minimal environmental impact, almost constant output and for the most part is hidden from eye.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_power

Just listened to an interesting podcast about it on Late Night Live:

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2011/3176948....

Obviously this wouldn't work for landlocked countries or countries which don't have shores with a constant supply of waves (I'm looking at you Baltic Sea) but for many parts of Africa, the Americas, Australia, Japan, etc, it might just be what we need.

Re: Nuclear Power is Safest Way to Make Electricity

#112
post #33

When I see a story like this, it reminds me that the events in Japan represent the biggest PR challenge the nuclear industry has faced in many years. Fifty billion dollars of nuclear reactor US taxpayer-backed loan guarantees hang in the balance. The industry has been working for the past few decades to rehabilitate the image of nuclear power after Chernobyl and Three Mile Island, and now they have to contend with vi…

Out if interest, the way I'd try and design a fail-safe solution would be to have meltdown trigger a shutdown.

Picture a bunch of large, heat-proof (ceramic?) test-tubes, with their bases apart but their openings together.

Put that underneath the core - then if it melts and drops down, small pieces of it flow in different directions - until you've got a sub-critical amount in each one - so the fission reaction stops.

Anything which requires active prevention of fission seems odd, presumably passive is better?

Re: Nuclear Power is Safest Way to Make Electricity

#113
A major problem here is that people often conflate nuclear power plants with nuclear bombs - in people's imaginations nuclear power plants could go up like a bomb and are therefore very dangerous. The fact that this is impossible doesn't get in the way of people's general perception, unfortunately.

Actually looking at the evidence provides a different story altogether - the XKCD radiation chart [1] being one of the most striking examples of the levels of radiation we're talking about here.

It's a pity (though not unexpected) that the media lap up this kind of sentiment despite the fact that hey, our planet is dying, and maybe we need to stop playing around with misconceptions for a second and maybe try and work on fixing this?

I guess our grandchildren will be the ones to find out how this one plays out.

[1]:http://xkcd.com/radiation/

Re: Nuclear Power is Safest Way to Make Electricity

#114
post #77

I looooves me some electricity. So, even though I'm presently suffering some annoyances in my daily life here in Tokyo (sporadically contaminated drinking water, suspect milk and other foodstuffs, not enough electricity to maintain our previous standard of living, Internet outages forfuckssake), and even though I bristle any time anybody (this article's author included) ignorantly implies that we know all the bad thi…

> nuke power is the safest power we've come up with (among power sources that actually have produced a significant fraction of the power we use) This is crucial, and is why blanket statements like "nuclear power is safe" are dangerous. There is an absolutely essential qualifier required on the end of any assertion about nuclear safety, and I'm glad to see that you put it in parentheses here. Nuclear power is the best…

"Scientific American, a most conservative scientific publication, in a cover story on October 26, 2009 -- unveiled its 'A Plan for a Sustainable Future.' It declared in its 'Plan to Power 100 Percent of the Planet with Renewables" that, 'wind, water and solar technologies can provide 100 percent of the world's energy, eliminating all fossil fuels.'

The British magazine New Scientist, in a special October 11-17, 2009, issue on safe, clean, renewable energy technologies -- titled 'Our Brighter Future' -- presented a United Nations report declaring that 'renewable energy that can already be harnessed economically would supply the world's electricity needs.'"

From: "Renewables Are More Than Ready"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karl-grossman/renewables-are-m...

Re: Nuclear Power is Safest Way to Make Electricity

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydro-electric, wind, solar, geothermal, tidal, to name the ones that come immediately to mind.

Hydroelectric has the problem that: 1) You're making tens of square kilometers of land uninhabitable by flooding. 2) Such flooding promotes the formation of anaerobic algae which generate thousands of tons of C02 3) Dams collapse too. Wind cannot provide a stable energy source. The advances required in battery technology and so-called "smart grids" are still too far off. You can't power a steel mill on wind power. So…

What about hydro on natural waterfalls? No space lost. No dam-failure risk. I don't think every rainy mountain is fully tapped.

True, they aren't everywhere. Maybe some of the power-intensive industry can move to them.

Re: Nuclear Power is Safest Way to Make Electricity

#116
I'm from Germany and I'm supporting our move to 100% renewable electricity production by 2050 or earlier.

It will be interesting to see what the US does.

Let's say coal and gas are much more dangerous than nuclear and nuclear is the way to go.

Let's also say renewables is not a way to go, because many people die from erecting wind mills, bio mass plants and solar panels. Chemicals for solar panel production are dirty and rare earth minerals need to be mined, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_generation

Currently 20% of electricity in the US is generated with nuclear power stations. There are around 100 in operations. Many of them are extremely old and some even sit in dangerous regions with earth quakes. Let's say 20 of them have to be shutdown soon.

68% of the electricity are provided by coal (45%) and gas (23%) power plants. That is 3.4 times more electricity.

Now the US is going to replace the dangerous and dirty coal and gas with nuclear.

So you need around new 250 nuclear reactors to phase out coal and gas. Maybe less, because newer nuclear reactors generate more electricity. Maybe more, because the electricity demand may rise.

Let's say a nuclear power plant and its direct infrastructure will cost around 5 billion a piece, that would be 1.25 trillion $. That sounds much, but given that the US spends a trillion a year on 'defense', it might not be much. May be the price will go down with production of 100 and more reactors.

Given that the political parties may want to have small government, the majority of the nuclear reactors will have to be financed and operated by companies.

So the tasks are:

* find a way to finance one or two trillion dollars

* decide and standardize on a new reactor design with inherent safety

* build up companies who will plan, build and operate the nuclear reactors

* find places for 250 new reactors (in addition to the existing 100)

* build, say, three reprocessing plants for those

* build, say, three breeder reactors

* find, say, three storage sites for nuclear waste

* get mining and an fuel enrichment going

The result would be about 85% electricity production with nuclear reactors and complete phase out of gas and coal power plants.

What is the time scale for this? The full development of a new type of reactor can be done in, say, 10 years. Add dealing with regulations, tests, ... - one may need 20 years. Let's be optimistic and say ten. A new reprocessing plant, would need, say, 10 years. A new storage site, say, 30 years.

So in the first ten years no reactor would be ready. That's pessimistic, since there might be reactor designs that can be built earlier - it is optimistic, since a really new design may need more time. Also the US has not built commercial reactors for some time, so there is some time needed to get this going again.

* 1st. decade, zero power plants

* 2nd. decade, ten power plants + a reprocessing site

* 3rd. decade, thirty power plants + another reprocessing site

* 4th decade, fifty new power plants + another reprocessing site, plus a new storage site

* 5th decade, 100 new power plants + a new storage site

* 6th decade, 100 new power plants

Result: new 290 nuclear power plants, 3 reprocessing sites, and two long term storage sites.

This would also allow to shut down some of the older ones.

These are just assumptions.

That's basically what France did, now scaled to the US. France has 65 million people and less electricity usage per person. The US is now at 300+ Million people. That's around 4.5 times more. France operates around 50 nuclear power plants. So, 350 in total in the US needed would be a good assumption (given some constraints, like that France is very centralized and many people live around Paris). France also has a shrinking population, where the US is still growing - last I looked.

Re: Nuclear Power is Safest Way to Make Electricity

#117
post #33

When I see a story like this, it reminds me that the events in Japan represent the biggest PR challenge the nuclear industry has faced in many years. Fifty billion dollars of nuclear reactor US taxpayer-backed loan guarantees hang in the balance. The industry has been working for the past few decades to rehabilitate the image of nuclear power after Chernobyl and Three Mile Island, and now they have to contend with vi…

Number of casualties from nuclear plant accidents: a few thousands. Number of casualties from coal mining accidents this past century [2]: 100,000. That's accidents in coal mines alone, not even counting lung diseases and similar. The fact that it takes a 9.0 tsunami after forty years of complete absence of nuclear accidents to bring this to the front page should be indication enough that nuclear is not just safer th…

"forty years of complete absence of nuclear accidents"? The same Wikipedia has a fairly large section on accidents at nuclear power plants, stating "worldwide there have been 99 accidents at nuclear power plants from 1952 to 2009 (defined as incidents that either resulted in the loss of human life or more than US$50,000 of property damage, the amount the US federal government uses to define major energy accidents that must be reported), totaling US$20.5 billion in property damages.[4] Fifty-seven accidents have occurred since the Chernobyl disaster, and almost two-thirds (56 out of 99) of all nuclear-related accidents have occurred in the USA." On a brighter note however, "There have been comparatively few fatalities associated with nuclear power plant accidents"

Re: Nuclear Power is Safest Way to Make Electricity

#118
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was kind of floored by the figure cited in the article of 6000 deaths per year in china from mining alone .

Do you think coal mining is more dangerous than Uranium mining?

As a quick bit of thought.

Lets say that you need to mine, say 2,715,384x the amount of coal to produce the same amount of energy as you would uranium. (From https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Energy_densit...).

Now if mining uranium is less then 2,000,000x more dangerous as mining coal, then per unit of energy generated it is actually safer.

Hence yes, I do think that coal mining is more dangerous then uranium mining, per unit of energy generated.

Re: Nuclear Power is Safest Way to Make Electricity

#119
Not even one mention of solar power? Maybe the technology is not at its peak yet, but combines with saving a lot of energy, is it not an option? Let's not forget that a lot of money went into perfecting nuclear power, probably a lot more than into solar power.

Comparing with coal deaths seems a bit like a strawman. Also I don't trust the way the victims of Chernobyl are calculated. Adding up victims from survivor stories ("all my colleagues are dead by now") seems to easily give more than 26 deaths.

Yes, I love electricity, too - especially for computing. But I also think the world could be improved a lot by saving energy at the right places. I'd be much happier if there were less cars, for example. I think I could power my computer with a solar panel, even when not living in the desert.

Heating seems to be another big one. Where I live renting is the norm, so home owners don't have much of an incentive to insulate houses properly (renters pay the energy bill).

At the very least, please give me an Android phone with a Geiger Counter so that I can check the milk when I go shopping...

Re: Nuclear Power is Safest Way to Make Electricity

#120
post #112
post #33

When I see a story like this, it reminds me that the events in Japan represent the biggest PR challenge the nuclear industry has faced in many years. Fifty billion dollars of nuclear reactor US taxpayer-backed loan guarantees hang in the balance. The industry has been working for the past few decades to rehabilitate the image of nuclear power after Chernobyl and Three Mile Island, and now they have to contend with vi…

Out if interest, the way I'd try and design a fail-safe solution would be to have meltdown trigger a shutdown. Picture a bunch of large, heat-proof (ceramic?) test-tubes, with their bases apart but their openings together. Put that underneath the core - then if it melts and drops down, small pieces of it flow in different directions - until you've got a sub-critical amount in each one - so the fission reaction stops.…

I would have a look at pebble bed reactors, molten salt reactors and heavy water moderated reactors.

long story short, the designs exist, we just can't seem to get rid of the old ones that are currently built and we can't seem to get the new designs built in any sort of scale.

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