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Craigslist has been disrupted

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Re: Craigslist has been disrupted

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A nit to pick, since elai has already provided some good examples. > Most "apartment search" sites that look prettier... None of these gripes are about appearance except inasmuch as appearance reflects functionality. craigslist is ugly, but that's not the problem. craigslist doesn't work well . I don't want it to look different. I want it to work differently. A competing site could look much prettier than craigslist…

My buddy is 40 years old, not very technical, but he's one hell of a mechanic. He's been making his living off buying and selling cars off of CL since the recession started. Just an anecdote. I'm not sure an "improved UI" would help him. So many entrepreneurs are mad at CL for whatever reason, but the main one seems to be jealousy. They would rather ruin it than allow it to continue.

i don't think it's just envy that makes entrepreneurs mad. CL is also quite litigious (but in a hypocritical capricious way), which is generally out of step with the rest of data-is-free, api-driven world.

Re: Craigslist has been disrupted

#123
post #68
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wading through apartment listings, for example, is miserable, and there are almost no mechanisms in place to encourage that very basic information is communicated by people listing their properties. Where is a good place to look for apartments? Most "apartment search" sites that look prettier than CL usually are cluttered with a high ads to info ratio, inaccurate info and/or are slow to load/navigate...

I"m partial to apartmentratings.com. Most rental sites earn their money from the apartments so they are not allowed to show you any negative info, meaning no user generated content. apartmentratings.com is a pariah in the industry because they actually let real people give their opinions.

i have a friend who worked there. he said they had a foot high stack of letters from apartments threatening to sue them because they refused to delete reviews.

Re: Craigslist has been disrupted

#124
post #11

As a business in 2010 CraigsList derived an estimated 53% of their revenue from job listings, 30% from adult ads, and 17% from rentals. The adult ads went out the window which is going to hurt them, a LOT, in terms of both traffic and revenue. So the more material question is has CL's largest revenue category - job's - been disrupted? I was able to dig up this graph of job mention volume and it appears that CL, in th…

It does not look like number of job postings on CraigsList grew much. Number of job postings overall on all web sites in the last grew more than on CraigsList (due to recovering economy).

Re: Craigslist has been disrupted

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's so bad that everyone uses it and it's making $50m a year. I wish I had a shitty product like that. And I even use it regularly to find stuff I want, locally, and cheap. The bastards.

I too wish I had a shitty product like that. However: > And I even use it regularly to find stuff I want, locally, and cheap. Are you really successful at that, though? 9 times out of 10 when I use craigslist the transaction is a horrible experience--for example: - the buyer of an item claims it, then flakes out - the seller of an item jacks up the price at the last minute, when I'm there in person, saying, "oh well…

Like I said, I'm successful at finding things I'm looking for.

In the last month, for instance, I've purchased:

-- a pressure washer (had it in my garage within 90 mins of searching) -- an industrial grade hedge trimmer -- 4 dock floats -- a folding swimming ladder

The first three I found looking, the fourth I found by placing a "looking for" add myself.

Sure, I've had shitty experiences with Craigslist, by far the worst was when I was selling a truck. I had a lot of moronic callers and a couple of no-shows, but I also ended up selling it for good cash to a respectful guy.

The best bet in handling the bad parts was basically saying "sorry, not interested in selling it to you" when I get the sense that the other end of the call was a flake or not worth wasting time on. Sure, pissed off some of them, but I like to think I have a reasonable ability to read people, and wasn't desperate enough to sell the truck that I felt obligated to follow through with every potential buyer.

In the end, I'd rather deal with that crap than a dealership any day.

Re: Craigslist has been disrupted

#126

Simply plotting their apartments or stuff for sale on a map would make a big difference in ease of use. A YC company, Padmapper, does this for you, but why doesn't CL see this as utterly necessary? Searching for something, be it an oak table or a house rental, is exasperating. Realtor.com, a site that's totally behind, got on the mapping thing more than a year ago. Amazing that CL hasn't done the same.

Maybe CL looks at Padmapper and thinks "oh great, somebody else did it and now we don't have to".

Re: Craigslist has been disrupted

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having had an ad inexplicably flagged, the flag help forum is no help at all , unless you consider random, uninformed speculation a form of help. For one thing, the tone of the flag help forum is that of a hazing circle. It's just a lot of people sitting around being snarky, making rude comments at relative novices and calling them names. Which might be easier to swallow if they actually provided any real help - but…

the there is neither accountability nor reliability in the flags themselves. Correct, it's up to the poster to construct an ad that can stay up. Community standards are different from city to city, but it's not Craigslist's job to keep ads up that the community doesn't want to see. Where is the "accountability and reliability" in your newspaper's classifieds? You think some editor at the Star Tribune is double-checki…

> "Craigslist inverts this relationship and puts the power into the readers' hand"

No, it doesn't - it puts powers into other advertisers' hands as much as it does the users. You are also forgetting that time is not a fundamentally equal resource - in my case it seems like there are griefers on the subcategory who consistent (and around the clock, it seems) flag posts that rub them the wrong way. Perhaps it's other regular posters trying to push competing posts out of the way (very, very likely, and in fact a common tactic), or maybe a disgruntled user with a beef against a subcategory and too much time on his hands. The problem here is griefers - and there is no mechanism to stop them.

Compare this with MMORPGs - players with a lot of time on their hands can stand to be incredibly powerful in ways that normal players cannot. Most games balance for this by nerfing extreme regulars and boosting infrequent players to lessen the gap. It doesn't remove the incentive of playing more, but it prevents situations where a bunch of Lv. 100 wizards are just constantly destroying a bunch of Lv. 10 noobs. CL faces the same problem - the morality police, griefers, and other obsessive users gum up the entire system.

> "That so many here are angry about having gotten flagged off in the past tells me that they were doing the bare minimum in writing their ad anyway."

This is an attitude I saw a lot on the flag-help forum, but I read through a large number of threads and I'd wager 95% of them were just fine - neither violating the TOU, nor being offensive, nor being illegal... There are many lower-traffic subcategories where the flag threshold for being pulled is absurdly low.

That's the problem with flag-help. Most posts submitted there don't have anything obviously wrong with them, and the flag-helpers are either there to flog the newbie for daring to have a post that got flagged, or speculate on various non-obvious reasons why a post was flagged. In the end nobody gets anywhere except in the 5% of cases where the questionable nature of the post is obvious, this is pointed out, and everyone goes on their merry ways.

> "By and large the people most frustrated with their Craigslist posting experience are those who just barf out a self-serving ad and expect the invisible hand of Adam Smith to protect their "right" to get $1200 for a Britney Spears ticket."

Citation required. I hung out on the flag-help forum for a couple of hours after posting my own, digging through past posts. The vast majority of the posts that go through there are neither self-serving nor entitled. They're just normal ads that get pulled for seemingly inexplicable reasons. The flag feature is neither accountable nor does it come with context. All there is is speculation on maybe, kind of, probably why something was flagged, where really this information needs to come from the flaggers themselves. The usage of the flag as an offensive feature between posters is also almost trivially easy to stop, but yet CL has done nothing.

The flag-help forum posters are also ill-qualified for the job, since they don't have any data on why posts get flagged either! All they can do is speculate - but without any input from real flaggers their speculation is about as reliable as anyone else's. For obvious offensiveness this works, but from what I saw the vast majority of posts that pass through there were flagged for anything but obvious reasons, and the responses are not informed.

> "If this was your experience, I'd look to the attitude of the person asking for help."

I gather from the tone of this sentence that you're a flag-help poster yourself. I saw dozens of puzzled people come into the forum, be perfectly respectful and polite, only to be faced with snark and derision from the "old boys club" of flag-help users. The prevailing attitude was "how dare you post something that got flagged, you sketchy sleazebag you! Here's some random speculation from me because there's nothing obviously wrong with your post, and your confusion and bewilderment as a result will only be further proof that you are not only posting shite content to the site, but clueless to boot!"

I've given up on Craigslist entirely from both a user and advertiser perspective. Mass-posters routinely flout the minimum-post-frequency guidelines, with nobody seemingly policing this abuse. Large advertisers will routinely flag competing posts to weed out competition. Griefers make the smaller, low-traffic subcategories impossible to use. Craigslist used to be a reliable way to just find simple classifieds, but the griefers and spammers have gotten more savvy and are exploiting the system straight to hell, and CL is still operating in the bubble of "the users know what's best" when their main audience has little to no say at all.

Re: Craigslist has been disrupted

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always takes more than "a few obsessive users," As far as I'm aware, nobody knows what logic or thresholds are used by CL. Common wisdom is that it's "lots" but there seems to be no reason whatsoever to think that.

As someone who actually does flag ads (as we all agree to do by using Craigslist), I can say that it's more than "a few." Just because they don't verify the numbers doesn't mean it's low. What purpose would that serve them? Look at it this way: read the comments here. Which is it, Craigslist is full of spam and a terrible place to browse; or Craigslist lets ads get flagged off too easily and it's a terrible place to…

> "Which is it, Craigslist is full of spam and a terrible place to browse; or Craigslist lets ads get flagged off too easily and it's a terrible place to sell? Only one of those is possible."

No, both are possible, and in fact both are true.

Look at apartment listings - in any major city full of spam, obviously posting far more frequently than is allowed. I've tried flaggin these posts - but it looks like the flag threshold is proportionate to the category's traffic level. Which is to say, for something like apts/housing, very high. Makes sense on paper until you realize there aren't enough dedicated users policing to actually make the flags a working feature on these categories. So yes, shitty experience for browsers, chock full of spam.

Turn around, look at smaller categories where the flag threshold seems to become very low (say, anything outside the realm of selling/renting physical goods), and it becomes a terrible place to sell. Perfectly innocuous posts are flagged off for inexplicable reasons (believe me, I've sat through the flag-help posts and seen plenty of these), and incredibly common for competing advertisers to use the flag feature offensively against similar postings. So yes, too easy to flag and terrible place to sell.

You can insist all you like, and pretend that anyone who gets posts flagged is obviously doing something wrong - you'd be right there with the rest of flag-help after all, but that doesn't change the fact that the flag system is routinely abused and seriously compromises the credibility of CL. It's simultaneously too strict to filter to spam, and too lenient that it generates mass numbers of false positives. It's an utter failure of an abuse-detection scheme.

Craigslist is ripe for being disrupted - it's already happened in some categories, and there is a lot of ache in the market for the others. For me it's been relatively little loss - I've been using the craigslist-disruptor-equivalent to gigs/creative and it works great, much better than CL.

Re: Craigslist has been disrupted

#129
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a strong difference between UI and UX, for example, when looking through postings for stuff for sale, or places for rent - filtering by HAS IMAGE is really the only way Ill look at an ad - yet there has NEVER been a way to expand and see images. The FLAG FOR REMOVAL is and has been abused for YEARS. The fact that an apartment or for sale posting gets flagged then immediately nobody else can see it has been u…

The fact that an apartment or for sale posting gets flagged then immediately nobody else can see it has been used to effectively block competition in the buyers market You misunderstand the flagging mechanism, and it's never "the competition." The competition isn't united against you and there aren't enough of them anyway. You probably just used a hit counter or external images or some other commonly-abused or commun…

> "You probably just used a hit counter or external images or some other commonly-abused or community-hated posting trope."

Your insistence on the purity of flaggers is puzzling, but is in line with what all of flag-help believes. There is never the assumption that the post was flagged wrongly, and instead the assumption that that poster must have done something against the TOU. Except this assumption seems to be wrong more than it is right (based on the couple of hours I spent digging through flag-help postings anyhow).

In my case it seems that there are a contingent of users who are allergic to any unpaid gigs, and will flag just about any ad in the unpaid category. This is despite the fact that CL specifically has an unpaid category, and the posts I saw pass through were not TOU-violating in any way. Flag-help's best response for me was that, hey, that's the way it is, just live with it. This seems to put the kibosh on any assumptions that all flags are legitimate (or even most flags are legitimate). The funny thing is, during the short time that my posts stayed up, I got an incredible number of contacts expressing interest... so clearly I'm not advertising something unwanted to a brick wall.

Re: Craigslist has been disrupted

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always takes more than "a few obsessive users," As far as I'm aware, nobody knows what logic or thresholds are used by CL. Common wisdom is that it's "lots" but there seems to be no reason whatsoever to think that.

As someone who actually does flag ads (as we all agree to do by using Craigslist), I can say that it's more than "a few." Just because they don't verify the numbers doesn't mean it's low. What purpose would that serve them? Look at it this way: read the comments here. Which is it, Craigslist is full of spam and a terrible place to browse; or Craigslist lets ads get flagged off too easily and it's a terrible place to…

I can say that it's more than "a few."

How can you say that? How does your personal experience of flagging postings in any way give you insight into the closed CL system?

I agree that flagging/community moderation is a good and necessary thing, I just think CL does it in an absolutely terrible way.

For example, if people find your post annoying, there is no "flag as annoying," or "flag and leave a comment." Instead, someone inadvertently offends someone else, and their post is taken down as spam. This example has netted only irritation for all parties involved, with no learning or progress. To me, that is simply a bad system.

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