Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action • Hacker News Board

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#301

Post by young_unixer » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 9:17 AM UTC

vwat wrote: post #280

From first principles reasoning, this is a good idea. We don’t ban Chinese websites, books or products. Although we tax their products more now. Apps aren’t like physical commodities. They can be used to gather data, quite invasively, shape and form public opinion in a new and more visceral way, as well as take advantage of exploits. Admittedly websites can do that too, but the scale of adoption of Tiktok makes this…

> We lose nothing by banning it.

You lose freedom.

Would it be OK to also ban Burguers? They're unhealthy and you lose "nothing" by banning them.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#302

Post by vwat » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 9:19 AM UTC

walki wrote: post #291

vwat wrote: post #280

From first principles reasoning, this is a good idea. We don’t ban Chinese websites, books or products. Although we tax their products more now. Apps aren’t like physical commodities. They can be used to gather data, quite invasively, shape and form public opinion in a new and more visceral way, as well as take advantage of exploits. Admittedly websites can do that too, but the scale of adoption of Tiktok makes this…

> The facts: we gain almost nothing by having tiktok around. We lose nothing by banning it, and gain a little bit of buffer against possible threats like election meddling, data mining for nefarious purposes and other things. Completely leaving politics aside, I basically support this. What about if all non-US countries start reasoning like you and ban Youtube, Facebook, ...?

If country X believes that Facebook is being used as an intelligence or opinion-shaping tool by the United States government then country X would be justified in trying to do something about it, in my opinion. And the loss of Facebook and it’s toxic effect on its users wouldn’t make me lose any sleep if I was a citizen in country X. And I think this is probably true. I know in Myanmar Facebook is insanely popular and I personally knew people very high up in the government who used Facebook and their whole family did as well. I’m confident that Facebook could use their records to effect almost any kind of change imaginable in Myanmar. Their access is mind blowing. Maybe I’m being a bit hyperbolic but the point gets across.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#303

Post by kqvamxurcagg » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 9:20 AM UTC

vwat wrote: post #280

From first principles reasoning, this is a good idea. We don’t ban Chinese websites, books or products. Although we tax their products more now. Apps aren’t like physical commodities. They can be used to gather data, quite invasively, shape and form public opinion in a new and more visceral way, as well as take advantage of exploits. Admittedly websites can do that too, but the scale of adoption of Tiktok makes this…

I love China and Chinese culture but it would be extremely unfair for TikTok to be allowed to succeed when China bans all popular Western communication tools.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#304

Post by Twisell » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 9:22 AM UTC

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #297

Twisell wrote: post #293

Not US citizen here. Can someone explain how in a democracy the chief executive can singlehandedly decide to ban a media only a few month before elections? I can't make any sense of that, it seems wrong at so many levels...

Congress loves giving away power to the Executive Branch so they don't have to bear responsibility for unpopular decisions. It's likely that at some point Congress gave this power to the president though not necessarily this Congress and this president. Congress is free to take the power back if it votes to do so. Given that even the Biden campaign has prohibited their workers from installing the TikTok app, there is…

But you have no safeguard against that?

I mean here in France when the government or the assembly trie to pass a law that is potentially unconstitutional there is an emergency review process by the "constitutional council" that can veto all or parts of the law that infringe.

This process just happened recently because our president tried to pass a "hate law" on social media that was deemed unconstitutional because it had too many unpredictable side effects on free speech principles.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#305

Post by vwat » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 9:27 AM UTC

pantalaimon wrote: post #289

vwat wrote: post #280

From first principles reasoning, this is a good idea. We don’t ban Chinese websites, books or products. Although we tax their products more now. Apps aren’t like physical commodities. They can be used to gather data, quite invasively, shape and form public opinion in a new and more visceral way, as well as take advantage of exploits. Admittedly websites can do that too, but the scale of adoption of Tiktok makes this…

> we gain almost nothing by having tiktok around. We lose nothing by banning it That's bold. There used to be a principle of freedom that allowed things not explicitly banned, and banning things would require a good reason. Is this kind of capriciousness the new normal now?

You seem personally offended but I believe this is a good reason. We ban all kinds of things. So you think we shouldn’t ban guns? You think we shouldn’t ban any kind of speech, including doxxing and death threats? You think we shouldn’t ban cancerous chemicals? This is mental gymnastics at the Olympic level. Of course we ban things sometimes.

Banning a widespread intelligence gathering and opinion shaping tool of the Chinese government is completely reasonable.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#306

Post by glenstein » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 9:27 AM UTC

envy2 wrote: post #271

This is a terrible development and precedent. Whatever you think of the CCP and the Chinese approach to censorship and tech, building our own 'Great Firewall' and banning foreign apps/services we don't like is not the answer. It just legitimises the Chinese approach and sends us further down the road to a fragmented rather than open internet.

I think it's reasonable to do for national security purposes, just like I think it's reasonable to disentangle U.S. industries from Chinese companies that pose national security threats and steal trade secrets.

So as a matter of principle, at least, I'm fine with it. I can't say I feel great about the wisdom of banning Tiktok in particular, but I won't let that confuse me into disagreeing with the underlying principle.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#307

Post by jiggawatts » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 9:28 AM UTC

And rightly so. Keep banning their apps and keep banning their web sites.

They do it to us.

I think it's absurd that there's an Azure and an Azure China. There's a drop-down list where I can pick Australia South East, South India, Japan West, Korea Central... but not China anything.

Chinese citizens are perfectly entitled to spin up a web server in Azure, or AWS, or GCP, any time, any country where they have data centres.

But.. oh no, we non-Chinese-citizens without a permanent address in China aren't allowed to have the reciprocal ability to create a web server in their country. That might step on the CCP's toes. It might spread dangerous information like democracy! It might compete with their government-run businesses. They might not get their beak wet, you see, and that's a problem. No can do. Gotta play the game, take part in the corruption, or no website for you.

Trump talks a lot of talk, but if he really wanted a "fair trade deal", he should just cut them off completely from the Internet. Fuck the great firewall. Fuck dragging people off to "reeducation camps" because they posted the wrong thing online. Fuck banned phrases like Winnie the Pooh.

We should all teach these people a lesson: You can't have it both ways. You can't have censorship and profit off of our freedoms. Pick one.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#308

Post by paganel » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 9:29 AM UTC

walki wrote: post #291

vwat wrote: post #280

From first principles reasoning, this is a good idea. We don’t ban Chinese websites, books or products. Although we tax their products more now. Apps aren’t like physical commodities. They can be used to gather data, quite invasively, shape and form public opinion in a new and more visceral way, as well as take advantage of exploits. Admittedly websites can do that too, but the scale of adoption of Tiktok makes this…

> The facts: we gain almost nothing by having tiktok around. We lose nothing by banning it, and gain a little bit of buffer against possible threats like election meddling, data mining for nefarious purposes and other things. Completely leaving politics aside, I basically support this. What about if all non-US countries start reasoning like you and ban Youtube, Facebook, ...?

As an EU citizen I hope the European Union (or the biggest governments that are part of it) will start seriously thinking about “nationalizing” the parts of Google and FB that operate in Europe, the same way MS is rumored to do with TikTok.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#309

Post by rsa25519 » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 9:30 AM UTC

Twisell wrote: post #304

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congress loves giving away power to the Executive Branch so they don't have to bear responsibility for unpopular decisions. It's likely that at some point Congress gave this power to the president though not necessarily this Congress and this president. Congress is free to take the power back if it votes to do so. Given that even the Biden campaign has prohibited their workers from installing the TikTok app, there is…

But you have no safeguard against that? I mean here in France when the government or the assembly trie to pass a law that is potentially unconstitutional there is an emergency review process by the "constitutional council" that can veto all or parts of the law that infringe. This process just happened recently because our president tried to pass a "hate law" on social media that was deemed unconstitutional because it…

> But you have no safeguard against that?

We do: the judicial branch.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#310

Post by glenstein » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 9:30 AM UTC

markosaric wrote: post #273

Ban Facebook and Google too? Their data collection is so much more powerful. Never seen TikTok scripts anywhere while most apps and sites send your personal data to FB and Google. Pretty much every American is tracked by Google and FB no matter whether they have an account or whether they install their app.

Like the other commenter I'm not so sure it's obvious that domestic data collection is 'so much more powerful' - presumably you can learn remarkably specific things about people via tiktok.

And GoogleBook aren't using data collection in service of major world power that is, in many senses, an antagonist to the western world, and we have avenues for oversight/reform available to us that we don't necessarily have with tiktok. That's not to say I think we should ban tiktok, but that contemplation of a ban doesn't bring with it the implication that GoogleBook would need the same treatment.