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Nuclear Power is Safest Way to Make Electricity

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Nuclear Power is Safest Way to Make Electricity

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So now the point is that coal disasters aren't being talked about? I thought we were discussing whether nuclear power is safe. Are you actually going to stand up and on the record proclaim that in general, free of context, nuclear energy is safe. Just that one sentence: nuclear energy is safe. No it isn't. It's fucking dangerous. Air pollution killing lots of people doesn't change this. Radiation kills people too.

The title of this article is that nuclear power is the safest , relative to other sources of power currently capable of scaling to needs. That's a very important distinction, so I would ask you to please consider that.

Safer than wind and solar? I don't think so. Those stats that we saw a while ago that people die from solar too because they fall off the roof are pretty ridiculous. 10 years from now all new homes will come with solar panels pre-installed, so people won't have to set them up themselves. Plus, you could always hire someone else to do it for you.

In my country we're building giant wind turbines that will generate twice as much energy as our nuclear plant.

I'm not saying we should ban nuclear power forever, but it shouldn't become the main source of energy either, at least not until we're researched it enough to be 100x safer than it is today, and when it will deliver 100x more energy than solar and wind can, through actual fusion or whatever. Until then, I don't see why we should blindly keep building them when there are perfectly viable clean energy alternatives out there already, or just slightly behind, and just need a little push capital wise to become more advanced.

Re: Nuclear Power is Safest Way to Make Electricity

#72
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with Fukushima was that it was an outdated design that should have been decommissioned. Nobody who points out the relative safety of nuclear power wants us to build more Mark I BWR's. My interest is in Travelling Wave Reactors and Thorium Molten Salt Reactors. But the problem is, when people freak out about Fukushima, they don't say "Hey! Mark I BWR's aren't safe! We should shut down those designs!" They…

Seems sort of revisionist to say "of course Mark I BWR's aren't safe". You know what nuclear experts were saying 3 weeks ago? They were talking about all the safety features, and the multiple levels of basically impervious containment, and how radioactive material would never get out into the environment. And here we are with a pretty serious radioactive mess to clean up (and from the looks of it it's probably going…

If you're making the argument that we more closely scrutinize 40 year old designs, you'll find no resistance here.

But the problem is that using Fukushima as an argument against nuclear, is like using a car crash as an argument against transportation.

Re: Nuclear Power is Safest Way to Make Electricity

#73
post #3

Great. I can't drink milk, had to avoid water for a day or two, having problem finding relatively uncontaminated meat, 20 km or so of this country is probably going to be left unlivable and so on. I find it incredibly offensive to see the Americans on this board downplaying the damage from Fukushima. Mod me down all you want. I will be happy to pay attention when someone purchases land at a fair price near Fukushima…

Couldn't you give the same challenge to the area near a coal powerplant? And oh, our entire climate has been significantly soured by that . Every power generation method we have significantly impacts the local environment, even geothermal and hydroelectric. There are a lot of accidents and environmental corruption stories every year, but one accident in a worst case scenario impacts you personally, and suddenly you'r…

I have gone on record and said that I support Nuclear power. I think it is necessary.

However, to simplify further, I think that Nuclear power supports hand wave deep issues of trust that develop because of the way these issues are treated.

I don't imply that there are any easy answers to power. Solar, wind, etc.. are not mature enough (to the best of my understanding). Coal releases more radiation (but not in catastrophic all-at-once scenarious)

Eat your dog food. Spend real money doing so. Otherwise, frankly, it's internet posing.

Re: Nuclear Power is Safest Way to Make Electricity

#74
post #52
post #33

When I see a story like this, it reminds me that the events in Japan represent the biggest PR challenge the nuclear industry has faced in many years. Fifty billion dollars of nuclear reactor US taxpayer-backed loan guarantees hang in the balance. The industry has been working for the past few decades to rehabilitate the image of nuclear power after Chernobyl and Three Mile Island, and now they have to contend with vi…

One thing that blows my mind with the Fukushima plant (and presumably others) is that the spent fuel pond is seemingly built above ground. Wouldn't you want this to be at the very bottom of the reactor building, so that water could collect in it in an emergency situation like in Fukushima where water is pumped in from above? Maybe this is (was) one of the unknowns/unthoughtofs that you mention. As an aside, if no one…

Putting the fuel storage pool on the fifth floor of the reactor does seem questionable, especially given the violence of the explosion at reactor 3.

Another "unknown bug" exposed by these events will probably motivate mitigating the risk of hydrogen explosions from hydrogen generated in a partial meltdown. As you can see in the second picture in this link,

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2399676

the force of the explosion crushed the concrete structure of the adjacent reactor building, and launched enough material into the air that it created holes 60 feet in diameter in the roof of the turbine building when it came down. This was not anticipated; if it were the reactors would have been constructed further apart.

The spent fuel rods must be actively cooled for many months after they are removed from the reactor due to heat-generating radioactive daughter products. Since the pools holding them have either boiled away due to the absence of active cooling or drained into the basement due to damage, it is likely these rods overheated. Japanese authorities have mentioned the possibility of "re-criticality", which would be a bad thing, especially in a fuel pond with no containment whatsoever.

There will probably be many lessons gained from these events that will be used to reduce risks in other operating reactors and future designs.

Re: Nuclear Power is Safest Way to Make Electricity

#75
post #2

While the safest, the waste will be with the Earth for a long time to come. Longer than any corporation will be around, or government agency. There has to be a clear cut plan to deal with the waste of nuclear power that accounts for it's life span, and possible natural disasters. Currently all waste is stored at the power plants and the only current plan is to encase the waste in concrete. But where to go with that c…

that waste can be burned in another types of reactors. Unfortunately, because of extremely high entry barrier, there isn't much chances for these or some other new types of reactors to be developed and put into production. Ie. we stuck with almost 60 year old technology [pretty much the first generation with some slight modifications] of nuclear energy production. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveling_wave_reactor

Doesn't burning nuclear waste just turn it into a gas or a pile of ash with the same radioactive elements? Burning is a chemical reaction, so the actual nuclei of the atoms shouldn't be changed at all.

Re: Nuclear Power is Safest Way to Make Electricity

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This just means that the bar is set very low. Any method of producing power that harms large numbers of people deserves serious scrutiny. We shouldn't be discouraging it, we should be calling for more!

NOBODY is saying that we shouldn't learn from the past when it comes to nuclear power. However, sensationalists such as yourself, claiming shit like "Nuclear power is inherently UNSAFE. It takes a lot of hubris to claim otherwise." are not adding to rational discussion, but rather detracting from it. The only thing people like you accomplish is preventing modern reactor designs from being implemented, therefore effec…

Every design was once a modern design. Nuclear power is inherently unsafe. That's why we're having this discussion.

Re: Nuclear Power is Safest Way to Make Electricity

#77
I looooves me some electricity.

So, even though I'm presently suffering some annoyances in my daily life here in Tokyo (sporadically contaminated drinking water, suspect milk and other foodstuffs, not enough electricity to maintain our previous standard of living, Internet outages forfuckssake), and even though I bristle any time anybody (this article's author included) ignorantly implies that we know all the bad things that were (or will be) caused by the meltdown at Chernobyl, I am totally 'pro-nuke' in the sense that I want more nuke plants to be built and maintained to produce electricity for us to use.

And, the premise that nuke power is the safest power we've come up with (among power sources that actually have produced a significant fraction of the power we use), is incontrovertibly true. This article is only one of dozens making that point.

However, people take this idea a bit too far, by not putting it into the right time context. A truly bad nuke disaster is forever (not literally, but for all intents and purposes). And we've never really had one yet. The thinking that Chernobyl is as bad as it can get is totally, obviously wrong--but it is implicit in a lot of the discussion.

Maybe Fukushima won't get to the level of Chernobyl--and that's still a maybe btw, as it is still getting worse--but it's easy and plausible to conceive of how it could have been much worse. A couple more serial failures, the epicenter of the quake being closer, whatever--this ancient, obsolete plant could very well have had all six reactors achieve full meltdown.

The woeful, pathetic--even funny, it's so bad--disaster preparedness that we now know TEPCO had implemented confirms a basic thing a lot of us have suspected: collectively, as a society (or separately, as a bunch of disparate societies), we just might not be mature enough in our thinking to strike the right balance of precaution and preparedness to handle nuclear power as safely as it should be handled.

Technologically, I think nuke power is awesome. Societally, our ability to responsibly deal with the dangers it presents is very suspect, IMO. Unfortunately, I think that is a much harder problem to address.

Probably some societies are better than others at this. Much like some seven year olds are responsible enough to handle a pocket knife and others totally aren't.

What we've seen (and are still seeing) in Japan has been much more pathetic, unprepared, and technologically primitive than a lot of us would have expected. Much more like my dumbshit little nephew who cut off the tip of his little finger and then sat there crying about it than like the one who taught himself to whittle sticks into Indian figurines.

Because the response to Fukushima has been so haphazard, reactive, and incompetent, I think many normal people now have this gut-reaction urge to reevaluate nuclear power, and that urge is basically correct. Of course, there is a lot of hysteria and empirically incorrect thinking flying around, but that happens any time a large number of humans discuss just about anything.

Still, the takeaway from this disaster shouldn't be 'nuclear power is teh awesome! no problem, bro!! nukes ftw!!'

It should be that nuclear power is indeed awesome, but our human systems that govern the deployment, administration, safeguarding, and--perhaps most importantly--sunsetting of nuclear power plants needs to be significantly reworked and dramatically improved.

I don't see why we should build even one more plant without the safety planning and preventive measures being an order of magnitude better than they have been so far. OTOH, I hope we can get it together to demand that work be done, and then do it, so that we can build more power plants, so that we can get our electricity back and I can turn on my lights and air conditioner here without feeling like an asshole.

Re: Nuclear Power is Safest Way to Make Electricity

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The title of this article is that nuclear power is the safest , relative to other sources of power currently capable of scaling to needs. That's a very important distinction, so I would ask you to please consider that.

Safer than wind and solar? I don't think so. Those stats that we saw a while ago that people die from solar too because they fall off the roof are pretty ridiculous. 10 years from now all new homes will come with solar panels pre-installed, so people won't have to set them up themselves. Plus, you could always hire someone else to do it for you. In my country we're building giant wind turbines that will generate twic…

I think you're seriously overestimating the current potential for solar photovoltaics and wind.

Re: Nuclear Power is Safest Way to Make Electricity

#80
post #33

When I see a story like this, it reminds me that the events in Japan represent the biggest PR challenge the nuclear industry has faced in many years. Fifty billion dollars of nuclear reactor US taxpayer-backed loan guarantees hang in the balance. The industry has been working for the past few decades to rehabilitate the image of nuclear power after Chernobyl and Three Mile Island, and now they have to contend with vi…

Number of casualties from nuclear plant accidents: a few thousands.

Number of casualties from coal mining accidents this past century [2]: 100,000.

That's accidents in coal mines alone, not even counting lung diseases and similar.

The fact that it takes a 9.0 tsunami after forty years of complete absence of nuclear accidents to bring this to the front page should be indication enough that nuclear is not just safer than most of the other energy production techniques, it's also the one that has the highest energy rendering.

Any Green voter who's done their homework should be voting for more energy to be generated by nuclear plants, not less.

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_mining

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