Why forgiving someone else is about you • Hacker News Board

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#231

Post by ta17711771 » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 9:31 PM UTC

Osiris wrote: post #128

My therapist has recently recommend "The Grief Recovery Handbook"[1] to me to deal with a breech of trust in my life. I never thought of that as "grief" but as we went through it, it's really put a new perspective on things. The book also talks about the importance of forgiveness and explains it this way: "Since you cannot go back in time to change the past, forgiveness is about giving up the hope of a different or b…

This is controversial, but on topic: name the crime (e.g. my partner cheated on me, etc).

Don't be ashamed. You're the victim, and you're supported, mate.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#232

Post by inostia » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 9:56 PM UTC

throwaway_234 wrote: post #133

My former best friend of 30 years turned into a greedy, vengeful, ego-driven criminal and after 15 years of keeping me away from his gambling (addiction) world (friends) he got me involved. I am not an innocent party as I agreed to do something that I knew was wrong and stupid. Even kept saying such to him and everyone while we did such. When the stuff hit the fan he threw me under the bus to save himself from the co…

Excuse the cultural reference, but the outdoor recreation thing makes me think of a plot line from The Sopranos where an addicted gambler gets "busted out" by the mafia and ends up being force to do illegal things because of his debts.

Maybe it was the gambling addiction that lead your friend to doing illegal activities? Addictions like that can cause people to go out of control, it's a compulsion and a very sad one.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#233

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 10:12 PM UTC

globular-toast wrote: post #186

My ex and first love cheated on me in the worst possible way. I'm certain I've been through a kind of grief that few people will ever experience as a result. But I just got over it. I forgave her in the sense that I understand what women are like now. She can't affect me any more. I've become so much stronger. I'm Stoic now. Time is the great healer as always. Therapy and all the rest of it are a massive swindle for…

[deleted]

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#234

Post by rriepe » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 10:23 PM UTC

M0T0K0 wrote: post #185

basch wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"This other person does not live in reality, move on". That is basically forgiveness. It's not a gift you give them, its not letting them off the hook. To forgive someone, they do not need to be aware you have done so. It's you taking control of the damage they did to you, and moving beyond it hurting you further.

Perhaps. I disagree with the general assumption associated with notions of forgiveness that this also means letting go of anger, however. Anger gets shit done.

Can you e-mail me? I am coming up with a theory of emotion/personality and have some questions. Address in profile.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#235

Post by barrkel » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:32 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #222

barrkel wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not trying to frame it as oppositional to a political trend, but rather that it's unfashionable an angle to take, to not take up the mantle of victimhood. I was commenting on the relative location of my position because I'm aware of its unfashionability as I write. If anything, I was being peremptorily defensive, not redirecting to some other external target.

That's fair, but I'm still very unclear on how the one relates to the other. How is this idea, "to not take up the mantle of victimhood," meant to be useful in, for example, forgiving my grandfather for what he did that one afternoon when I was still a small boy, and everyone else was out on a day trip somewhere? - that one afternoon much of which I'm totally unable to remember, but still, thirty years on, makes me q…

Not forgiving someone means holding on to a grievance and adopting the identity of a victim. That's mostly what I mean. But there's more.

There's an emotional comfort that lies in wallowing in grievance, and a variety of social rewards from sharing it with others - attention, commiseration, and a kind of cathartic semi-religious feeling of confession from the recital, which takes on the form of a kind of ritual if you've done it enough times; you need to set it up right so that the payoff delivers.

Of course I don't mean to deny your lived experience, and when I say "you" above, I don't mean you specifically. I'm simply aware, and wary of, the psychological traps that lie down similar roads. I especially don't want to let people who've hurt me in the past to get to define my identity or mental or emotional state; or I simply become a fragment of a mirror of their life, and not my own.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#236

Post by throwaway_234 » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:37 PM UTC

inostia wrote: post #232

throwaway_234 wrote: post #133

My former best friend of 30 years turned into a greedy, vengeful, ego-driven criminal and after 15 years of keeping me away from his gambling (addiction) world (friends) he got me involved. I am not an innocent party as I agreed to do something that I knew was wrong and stupid. Even kept saying such to him and everyone while we did such. When the stuff hit the fan he threw me under the bus to save himself from the co…

Excuse the cultural reference, but the outdoor recreation thing makes me think of a plot line from The Sopranos where an addicted gambler gets "busted out" by the mafia and ends up being force to do illegal things because of his debts. Maybe it was the gambling addiction that lead your friend to doing illegal activities? Addictions like that can cause people to go out of control, it's a compulsion and a very sad one.

Yes and so am I supposed to give him a pass? He's going to keep going in the wrong direction until his addiction and it's action lands him in jail or something bad to teach him a lesson. Not sure I can teach him that lesson myself minus cutting him out of my life and all my family's life (he grew up around my family).

Also, when you put out he's doing wrong and going in a horrible direction he says i am horrible for judging him. He already almost got thrown in jail once, yet didnt get time. Maybe time in jail is what he needs to wake himself up from his addiction. Unfortunately, both his parents died early due to drug addiction.

Hard to forgive and reach out when all i can see is he will do the same until he works on quitting his addiction.

What would others do?

*im here in the mid-Atlantic area of the US. Didnt watch the Sopranos that much, but on a different note running that business with him was the best job I ever had. Customers loved what we offered and not only paid us but would write reviews on Facebook without asking. As well I was selling a service I loved and working with friends outside. It could definitely could have become a 100k summer business and more, but he ran the business like a Soprano and I ran it like Walt Disney. The latter is still blossoming decades later ... mob bosses not so much.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#237

Post by GavinMcG » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:51 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #226

GavinMcG wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are situations where you're disempowered, taken advantage of, or abused. Some people inappropriately generalize those experiences, and instead of being (appropriately) aware of the possibility of mistreatment or risk, they expect such treatment or interpret all treatment through such a lens. There's no need to deny that you might be a victim. My ex-girlfriend cheated on me, and maybe my current one will too. Bu…

Responsibility for yourself should not mean that you will now be like "maybe cheating was my fault or maybe I remember it wrong". It was not. Responsibility for yourself also means that some things are not your doing. You and I are not Gods moving everyone else by our actions.

Precisely. Which is why recognizing that other's actions aren't about you and don't have to disempower you is part of undoing the view of yourself as a perpetual victim and a view of others as having more power over you than they do.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#238

Post by infogulch » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:54 PM UTC

rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote: post #191

ta1234567890 wrote: post #142

"Hating someone is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die" Recently I realized I was poisoning myself with intense negative thoughts and feelings about someone. Then I also noticed those thoughts feelings were only impacting me, not the other person at all. Finally I decided to forgive that person for what they had done to me, and when I started that process it became evident that in order to acco…

A Buddhist monk I met used a similar analogy: Harboring resentment is like holding onto a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at another; you are the one who gets burned. Forgiveness is setting down the coal.

Maybe the easiest way to set down the coal is to perceive why you are holding it. Like GP.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#239

Post by DoreenMichele » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 12:27 AM UTC

It makes some decent points, especially with regards to "forgiveness isn't necessarily about reconciling" and addresses other general misinformation about the idea.

What I always say is "Forgiveness is a gift. Trust is earned."

I think people hang onto a lot of negativity precisely because we so often hear garbage like "Forgive and forget" and "let bygones by bygones" which are phrases explicitly used by abusive people to indicate you are the asshole if you use their track record of bad behavior to be skeptical of their latest empty promises. Such ideas get used to facilitate abusive behavior and tell you that the only way you can be a good and decent person is to set aside common sense and actively cooperate with their plans to victimize you again.

"Forgiveness is a gift. Trust is earned." helps make the distinction between the two things. It can say "I may no longer be mad and projecting a lot of negativity at you, but you haven't fixed anything at all from your end, so, no. Don't assume that means I will be a chump and fall for your garbage."

AKA: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

It's okay to say "I was burned by this person. There is zero evidence that they have changed and I will not trust them again." while also saying to yourself "I am sick to death of wallowing in my misery. I would like to leave this emotional pain behind and focus on other things. I would like to stop and smell the roses and be present in the here and now and enjoy today, regardless of what shitty things some asshole did to me in the past."

TLDR: Sometimes, clinging to old pain is a means to shield yourself from new harm. Realizing that can help empower you to protect yourself without wallowing in misery.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#240

Post by ggm » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 12:40 AM UTC

The take-away about forgiveness I carry is that doing wrong things has a life-long burden. No amount of self-forgiveness can rid you of the burden of remembering you did a thing you have strong negative emotions about. If you did a stupid thing to yourself its a 'virtuous circle' but when you do it to somebody else (and, I did) then you carry a burden of your impact into another autonomous entitie's life.

I really regret what I did to them, and I regret what it did to me too.

No amount of forgiveness on their part will end this burden.