A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life • Hacker News Board

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#391

Post by garbagetime » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 8:59 PM UTC

diebeforei485 wrote: post #371

vaidhy wrote: post #339

I have been reading through the comments and I am very curious about a few things - 1. What "bullshit" degrees people are talking about? Are they the liberal arts studies? If so, as a society do we not see value in the fine arts? Expertise in music, language, anthropology, history, etc do not necessarily lead to a well-paying job.. but they give intellectually satisfaction in and of itself. 2. IMHO, the pay you are l…

The arts (orchestra/symphony, opera/musicals, etc) are a luxury good. There is a small, niche market for these things, mostly centered around certain cities - so we can only have so many artists. The mass arts that the masses can afford to consume (TV, streaming music, and movies) are by definition based on popularity, so we can only have so many artists. I don't know why we fund so many people's arts degrees. We nee…

>orchestra/symphony, opera/musicals

You've chosen the arts which require massive organisation and expense. What about painters, singer-songwriters, writers, poets, etc.?

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#392

Post by analog31 » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 9:02 PM UTC

diebeforei485 wrote: post #371

vaidhy wrote: post #339

I have been reading through the comments and I am very curious about a few things - 1. What "bullshit" degrees people are talking about? Are they the liberal arts studies? If so, as a society do we not see value in the fine arts? Expertise in music, language, anthropology, history, etc do not necessarily lead to a well-paying job.. but they give intellectually satisfaction in and of itself. 2. IMHO, the pay you are l…

The arts (orchestra/symphony, opera/musicals, etc) are a luxury good. There is a small, niche market for these things, mostly centered around certain cities - so we can only have so many artists. The mass arts that the masses can afford to consume (TV, streaming music, and movies) are by definition based on popularity, so we can only have so many artists. I don't know why we fund so many people's arts degrees. We nee…

How much do we fund arts degrees, compared to, say, engineering, business, and clinical fields? It would be interesting to see the breakdown.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#393

Post by grawprog » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 9:03 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #389

vaidhy wrote: post #339

I have been reading through the comments and I am very curious about a few things - 1. What "bullshit" degrees people are talking about? Are they the liberal arts studies? If so, as a society do we not see value in the fine arts? Expertise in music, language, anthropology, history, etc do not necessarily lead to a well-paying job.. but they give intellectually satisfaction in and of itself. 2. IMHO, the pay you are l…

I think it's interesting how few read to the end. The author is a "professor of the practice of public leadership." At a business school. It's worth asking what a "professor of the practice of public leadership" is, because - with my combined liberal arts and STEM academic background - I honestly have no idea. Which piques my curiosity, because this piece reads like a parable. Second son not interested in college? Ne…

That's pretty much what public leadership is have you ever seen a leader that doesn't do that? I've never had any liberal arts background, but we sure did learn to persuade people in my biology schooling. It's pretty much required to get anyone to care about saving animals and forests over making money.

Public leaders do the same thing every day to get you to agree with laws or decisions they make.

Corporate leaders do it to get people to buy their shit or work for their company.

Leadership, is literally persuading people to follow you. Because in the end, you're going to be a lot more successful as a leader doing it that way than through orders and fear or something.

As to the rest of your post about the article itself though, I don't disagree with you, having written many persuasive things designed to sway people using facts, and perfectly placed numbers, that's pretty much what this is.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#394

Post by pixelbash » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 9:03 PM UTC

diebeforei485 wrote: post #371

vaidhy wrote: post #339

I have been reading through the comments and I am very curious about a few things - 1. What "bullshit" degrees people are talking about? Are they the liberal arts studies? If so, as a society do we not see value in the fine arts? Expertise in music, language, anthropology, history, etc do not necessarily lead to a well-paying job.. but they give intellectually satisfaction in and of itself. 2. IMHO, the pay you are l…

The arts (orchestra/symphony, opera/musicals, etc) are a luxury good. There is a small, niche market for these things, mostly centered around certain cities - so we can only have so many artists. The mass arts that the masses can afford to consume (TV, streaming music, and movies) are by definition based on popularity, so we can only have so many artists. I don't know why we fund so many people's arts degrees. We nee…

This is a viewpoint centered around seeing art as a commodity. To me that's like saying we only need so many scientists. Is perceived value the best metric?

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#395

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 9:04 PM UTC

simplify wrote: post #373

bobbydroptables wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Like rent an apartment? Have a car to get to work? Then you rent an apartment or buy a car. Are you implying you can't do this after bankruptcy? It's much easier to do these with a bankruptcy on your "record" than with a $1000 monthly payment.

I'm implying that these things are affected by your credit score.

[deleted]

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#396

Post by vaidhy » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 9:07 PM UTC

daniel-s wrote: post #379

vaidhy wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not believe in this over-simplification. However, the point about going to debt for those degrees is a question specific to US at this point in time. We should talk about free college education or heavily subsidized one, but this same group here has been heavily against these ideas because they are socialist. However, happiest countries in the world seems to be mostly social democratic[1] and for one, if possibl…

Your list is a list of countries that also happen to be at the top of this one [1]. They are the countries with the most freedom and capitalism. People are generally happy when they're free to own property and become prosperous. [1] https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

I think you are confusing social democracy and communism[1]. I agree with you that people should be free to own property and become wealthy. However, I do not think it should come at the cost of removing social net for the less lucky.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#397

Post by 95_JL_OK » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 9:18 PM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #201

95_JL_OK wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another thing with a PhD is that it is no guarantee that you'll even be hireable. I know of a number of PhD candidates who have trouble interacting in a professional setting outside of the of 'I deserve deference because I have a PhD, you don't necessarily even deserve respect' mentality. I find sometimes a PhD can come with very ingrained attitude issues. I recall working for a company with a new-recruit development…

I wonder if the same people would have failed out of any job requiring human interaction. One thing graduate education does is attract people who know that they would struggle in a mainstream work environment for whatever reason. Some are outright crazy.

Quite possibly. I do know it's common to the point of being a trope that some graduate students are just in graduate school to defer having to enter the work-force. Some see it as a way to put off having to make major decisions or processes like job hunting. Not like there's no real reason some opt to do things like that. It is markedly easier to accept scholarships and do the grad school circuit than find a job if you have mid to high grades.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#398

Post by daniel-s » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 9:19 PM UTC

vaidhy wrote: post #396

daniel-s wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your list is a list of countries that also happen to be at the top of this one [1]. They are the countries with the most freedom and capitalism. People are generally happy when they're free to own property and become prosperous. [1] https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

I think you are confusing social democracy and communism[1]. I agree with you that people should be free to own property and become wealthy. However, I do not think it should come at the cost of removing social net for the less lucky. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

Feel free to disagree with me, but I believe I very well understand what "social democracy" is supposed to mean.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#399

Post by jimbokun » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 9:19 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #315

" Higher education is often described as an investment. But it’s still unclear if it pays off in happiness. " Nothing, nothing will guarantee happiness. Or a good life. Make the best decisions you can, by which I mean try to make decisions that you will not regret later. (Have I made a crap-ton of mistakes in my life? Sure 'nuff. Would I make different decisions if I could, even knowing what I know now? Probably not.…

In high school, I had a part time job planting trees, but knew I was going to a university that I was proud to get accepted to and excited to have that opportunity. But kind of thinking maybe I shouldn't brag about that to the other kids who were doing this same job, but wouldn't have the same opportunities for higher education as myself.

Then one day, the subject came up, and the other guys were like "Thank god I'm graduating and won't have to waste any more time reading and studying and sitting in a classroom. I can work outside and make money instead."

And I realized not everyone's path to happiness is the same.

On the flip side:

I spent another summer working with a couple older gentlemen driving a tractor. I said something like "This isn't so bad, working outside, breathing fresh air."

They told me in no uncertain terms "Get a job doing something in an office with air conditioning, you don't want to still be out here doing this when you're our age."

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#400

Post by vaidhy » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 9:23 PM UTC

linuxftw wrote: post #372

vaidhy wrote: post #339

I have been reading through the comments and I am very curious about a few things - 1. What "bullshit" degrees people are talking about? Are they the liberal arts studies? If so, as a society do we not see value in the fine arts? Expertise in music, language, anthropology, history, etc do not necessarily lead to a well-paying job.. but they give intellectually satisfaction in and of itself. 2. IMHO, the pay you are l…

> Most of the "golden age of civilizations" had this property I don't know what civilizations you're talking about, but the vast, vast majority of humans in the past were busy working in the fields to avoid starvation. The classical fine artists were wealthy or had wealthy patrons.

An era of relative peace, prosperity, and cultural production which will define an entire society is often called a golden age. It is rare enough that it needs a mention in history.

Here are a few examples: https://sites.google.com/site/dobsonandphillipsinc/home/anci... - During this era, the economy, arts, architecture and even commerce, flourished.

Golden age of Gupta empire: [https://resources.saylor.org/wwwresources/archived/site/wp-c...] Under his rule, the Gupta Empire reached its zenith, and this is considered the golden age of India. His reign, like his father’s, was marked by religious tolerance and great cultural achievements

There are very similar notes about Persians, middle ages in Europe etc.

But there is no reason why we are not living in one now.