The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple • Hacker News Board

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#71

Post by moralsupply » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 8:54 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #16

moralsupply wrote: post #7

The article states that Apple is extorting users. Is Apple forcing anybody to use their services?

By not allowing alternate app stores, yes.

Apple doesn't have to support other stores. If users don't like that idea, they can simply not use Apple products. Users have a choice.

If, however, you want to impose the support of other stores on Apple by the means of regulations, you're effectively supporting the use of the government's monopoly of force against a company that is building products that people are happy to pay a premium to buy products from (and therefore are perfectly fine with the app store).

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#72

Post by skuthus » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 8:54 PM UTC

jeppesen-io wrote: post #58

spullara wrote: post #9

As a consumer, I am 100% in favor of the way run the app store. I don't want to give random apps my credit card. I don't want to have 18 accounts to keep track of. I don't want to have to call telephone support to cancel my account. I don't want malware in my apps. I don't want apps to have my email if they don't need it. I don't need another middleman for content companies license and distribute. Everything Apple is…

Yeah, I completely agree. I do feel conflicted because just a few companies control everything. It's that tough balance to be sure and I don't know what the right solution is Android has the freedom of other app stores, but in practice very few even bother

Then it shouldnt be a problem to allow alternative stores

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#73

Post by LeifCarrotson » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 8:54 PM UTC

The ability to communicate by smartphone is so ubiquitous in our society that it has effectively become a basic need on the level of electricity, water, natural gas, and internet access. The utility service that was land-line telephones is becoming obsolete, and it's becoming increasingly harder to participate in society without a smartphone and the ability to install apps on that smartphone.

In light of that reality, the duopoly of Apple and Google are effectively public utilities. They can no longer be considered solely as providers of discretionary consumer goods, and should be subject to additional scrutiny and regulation beyond that applied to ordinary commodity manufacturers.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#74

Post by Apocryphon » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 8:54 PM UTC

xvector wrote: post #25

Apocryphon wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the government forces a platform open and hands it over to a consortium of industry leaders, as well as associations of independent developers and open source foundations... sure why not?

Because the government should not have unilateral power over a platform you've poured your own time, money, and effort into developing. That would be theft. I am honestly amazed that people are still in favor of gross government overreach in the era of Trump.

You can say the same about Ma Bell, or Standard Oil.

The pre-edited version of the original post asked the ludicrous question "So now we’re going to have governments design the software in our phones", so he got a ludicrous answer in kind. But in theory, if Apple's control of the App Store platform constitutes a monopoly, it would not be gross government overreach to pursue antitrust, as it has done historically, even if it has been unfashionable in recent decades.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#75

Post by echelon » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 8:55 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #45

echelon wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are bolted on hacks and don't have the combined support of Apple and Google. Nevermind the fact that this doesn't solve monopoly of distribution.

> These are bolted on hacks and don't have the combined support of Apple and Google. If you don't like "bolted on hacks" you'd like Web APIs and HTML as an application development platform even less...

You just insulted the platform of an entire swath of developers. I'll take it you didn't intend to attack their work, because it sounded kind of close to that.

You're taking a very narrow point of view.

The web is the last free thing we have that keeps us from being eternally bound to rent seekers. You shouldn't attack it. You should be grateful for it.

It's because of things like the web and open source we have an incredibly vibrant industry where it's easy to get started from nothing. In the limit, if Apple and Google expressed complete and total control, we'd all just be employees and own none of it.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#76

Post by drivingmenuts » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 8:55 PM UTC

skuthus wrote: post #24

spullara wrote: post #9

As a consumer, I am 100% in favor of the way run the app store. I don't want to give random apps my credit card. I don't want to have 18 accounts to keep track of. I don't want to have to call telephone support to cancel my account. I don't want malware in my apps. I don't want apps to have my email if they don't need it. I don't need another middleman for content companies license and distribute. Everything Apple is…

You can still have what you want and give people other options. It's called choice. We deserve to be able to choose

Let’s be precise here. You want to be able to choose.

If you can force thru a change to allow other app stores on an IDevice, and Apple still refuses to follow thru, then you can say you deserve it.

Wanting a thing is not the same as deserving it. Choice does not exist until you have options.

That said, I’m in favor of opening up other App Stores, so Apple can boot the all crapware and focus on a small number of high-quality, trustable apps, which they can market as such. Apple and the developers could charge a premium for being trusted and consumers would be able trust that they are actually receiving the best-in-class apps for their device.

Then, if consumers want to go to some cut-rate App Store and buy crap apps, that’s on them.

That’s a win-win all around.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#77

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 8:55 PM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #18

spullara wrote: post #9

As a consumer, I am 100% in favor of the way run the app store. I don't want to give random apps my credit card. I don't want to have 18 accounts to keep track of. I don't want to have to call telephone support to cancel my account. I don't want malware in my apps. I don't want apps to have my email if they don't need it. I don't need another middleman for content companies license and distribute. Everything Apple is…

The problem isn't how they run their store -- the problem is that they are the only store.

They also favor their own apps or downright remove the competition.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#78

Post by fjdjsmsm » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 8:55 PM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #18

spullara wrote: post #9

As a consumer, I am 100% in favor of the way run the app store. I don't want to give random apps my credit card. I don't want to have 18 accounts to keep track of. I don't want to have to call telephone support to cancel my account. I don't want malware in my apps. I don't want apps to have my email if they don't need it. I don't need another middleman for content companies license and distribute. Everything Apple is…

The problem isn't how they run their store -- the problem is that they are the only store.

Does Walmart have a monopoly on cash registers inside a Walmart?

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#79

Post by SomeHacker44 » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 8:55 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #12

The only monopoly here is Apple’s monopoly on designing its own products. The iPhone, iOS, it’s development tools and the App Store are all Apple products, so Apple gets to decide what features they have. It’s also not unusual for companies to make deals with third parties to include their technology and software in their products, often as optional chargeable extras. That’s all the App Store is, it’s a way to add op…

> Are you going to mandate what features Apple, or any manufacturer of devices with embedded software, can or cannot implement?

In fact, yes. Just like we mandate cars have seat belts and third brake lights, airliners have emergency exits, automobile fuel contains no lead or added ethanol, houses use electrical wires per code, and so forth.

Government can simply mandate a maximum fee (like credit card interchange fee regulation in the last decade), or force the system to allow sideloading (like busting the AT&T attached device monopoly in the 70s), etc.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#80

Post by sukilot » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 8:55 PM UTC

dkobia wrote: post #36

spullara wrote: post #9

As a consumer, I am 100% in favor of the way run the app store. I don't want to give random apps my credit card. I don't want to have 18 accounts to keep track of. I don't want to have to call telephone support to cancel my account. I don't want malware in my apps. I don't want apps to have my email if they don't need it. I don't need another middleman for content companies license and distribute. Everything Apple is…

As a consumer I love Apple's commitment to high quality apps - a side effect of their review process. As a seller on their marketplace 30% is extremely high. 30% of every sale! For context Amazons referral fee averages about 15%.

> commitment to high quality apps

...that don't compete with Apple's own.