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Why forgiving someone else is about you

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Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#191

Post by rrrrrrrrrrrryan »

ta1234567890 wrote: post #142

"Hating someone is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die" Recently I realized I was poisoning myself with intense negative thoughts and feelings about someone. Then I also noticed those thoughts feelings were only impacting me, not the other person at all. Finally I decided to forgive that person for what they had done to me, and when I started that process it became evident that in order to acco…

A Buddhist monk I met used a similar analogy: Harboring resentment is like holding onto a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at another; you are the one who gets burned.

Forgiveness is setting down the coal.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#192

Post by M0T0K0 »

woko wrote: post #187
M0T0K0 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I forgive myself for being naive and uninformed. Why would I need to forgive myself for someone else's actions and consequences? Fuck all of that. I sleep more soundly with each day that I remind myself "This other person does not live in reality, move on". Long stopped having "panic attacks" 10 years ago. Coincidentally, right around the time I began to question the abuser's facade. And you do want a relationship wi…

I get your point, but I don't get how it diverges from what was described in the article. Based on what you wrote, it looks to me that you are actually very advanced in the process of forgiveness: telling your story, expressing your feelings, seeing your childhood through the eyes of yourself as an adult, focusing on your well-being in the present and in the future. > they keep digging up the past and weaponizing you…

The article is wrong, then, IMO. And so is the author's main reference for the article, Ana Holub:

>https://anaholub.awakemedia.com/about/

Not a single PhD, degree, etc listed. A track record yes, but Pepsi and Coke both have their consumers despite anyone's individual preference over the other.

Sorry but hatred is a perfectly rational thing to feel towards an abuser. Letting it motivate you to take retributive action is of course not something to do if one wants to escape the cycle of abuse, but regardless: the body keeps the score https://www.amazon.com/Body-Keeps-Score-Healing-Trauma/dp/01...

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#194

Post by basch »

yarrel wrote: post #166
basch wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do I forgive him? no, especially since he never apologized. what you are describing is not forgiveness. It's called moving on. Forgiveness is moving on. It is letting go of your negative emotions. Needing someone else to apologize to "give forgiveness" is not how forgiveness needs to work.

If that person hears that they have been forgiven, how do you think that will guide their future actions? There's a big gap in all the highly psychologized/desocialized talk of forgiveness in this discussion. That is one of its problems.

>If that person hears that they have been forgiven

Because its something private with yourself, I dont see it necessary as something to share for it to happen. Forgiving someone without telling them will change your interactions with them, but you dont need to tell them youve done so for it to be forgiveness.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#195

Post by Godel_unicode »

throwanem wrote: post #162
barrkel wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally frame it as taking responsibility for your feelings - recognizing that you have in large measure conscious choice over the way you feel and can will it differently - and I think of it in opposition to what I perceive as a modern vogue for playing the victim, or worse, stacking up victimhood cards like they are spell multipliers and using them in a social competition to prove how much bigger of a victim y…

This sounds like a recipe for redirecting the grudge toward some other external target, instead of letting it go. Not to say you shouldn't do what works for you, as long as you don't hurt anyone else in the doing of it - but to find it as you've put it here gives it the sense of general advice and recommendation, and in that sense it seems very much wanting.

Forgiveness can be succinctly summed up as putting something behind you by deciding that it's over and you're moving on. I think the key phrase you perhaps missed in GPs comment is:

"...that you have in large measure conscious choice over the way you feel and can will it differently"

They then contrast this with gathering victimhood cards (my favorite example of this is the scene from Scrubs where Turk and Elliot are arguing over whether black doctors or women doctors have it harder, then both agree that their black woman colleague has it worst of all), which I think you would agree is the opposite of forgiveness.

I'm not sure I agree with their tone about victimhood cards, as another way to phrase that would be that some people have traumas they haven't fully processed. Sounds different when cast in that light.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#196

Post by rrrrrrrrrrrryan »

hawk_ wrote: post #2

While law doesn't have place for revenge in a civilised society and rightly so, the need for revenge/retribution I suspect is quite innate. It's healthy to try to forgive but it's quite difficult, almost like you can't fool yourselves into thinking you aren't hungry.

Interestingly, forgiveness plays a part of some systems of law (particularly in the Middle East). If, for example, you accidentally kill a person while driving drunk, you have the opportunity to publicly apologize, and the family of the deceased are offered an opportunity to publicly forgive (though from my understanding, they're under no obligation or pressure to do this, and I believe in an instance this egregious, it would be quite rare). If you're forgiven, the sentencing is less harsh than it would be otherwise.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#197

Post by Godel_unicode »

yarrel wrote: post #168
ta1234567890 wrote: post #142

"Hating someone is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die" Recently I realized I was poisoning myself with intense negative thoughts and feelings about someone. Then I also noticed those thoughts feelings were only impacting me, not the other person at all. Finally I decided to forgive that person for what they had done to me, and when I started that process it became evident that in order to acco…

"Forgiving someone who hasn't changed is like encouraging a poisoner."

This quote comes from a relatively juvenile definition of forgiveness, namely forgive and forget. I can forgive someone for violating my trust without giving them the same trusted position they used to have.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#198

Post by basch »

M0T0K0 wrote: post #185
basch wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"This other person does not live in reality, move on". That is basically forgiveness. It's not a gift you give them, its not letting them off the hook. To forgive someone, they do not need to be aware you have done so. It's you taking control of the damage they did to you, and moving beyond it hurting you further.

Perhaps. I disagree with the general assumption associated with notions of forgiveness that this also means letting go of anger, however. Anger gets shit done.

>notions of forgiveness that this also means letting go of anger, however. Anger gets shit done.

Thats ok, and it's not forgiveness then. It's your choice to hold on to your anger, if you find it has purpose.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#200

Post by dsubburam »

yarrel wrote: post #165
basch wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>a trite "I forgive you" A trite "I forgive you" isnt forgiveness. Forgiveness is a virtue, which means not everybody has it, or can do it. Forgiveness is not "forgiving" someone that didn't actually wrong you. Forgiveness is not pretending to let go but holding on. Forgiveness is not telling the other person they are forgiven, so the weight is off their shoulders. Forgiveness IS "dealing with the PTSD", letting go,…

So not only must we let those who wrong us off the hook and feel for them, if we can't it's because we aren't virtuous enough. I'm perfectly comfortable ignoring that moral claim. If people want to talk about letting go, talk about letting go . Talk of forgiveness is simply misleading.

Exactly. There is the case where the person who has given offense sincerely offers an apology, having become aware of their wrong, with an affect of proportionate contrition. The injured party might now deem to forgive them, and restore the offender's previous status in the relationship--e.g. as a friend, good neighbor, etc.

Redefining "forgiveness" from this bilateral way that we have come to traditionally understand it, into this unilateral context of letting go, not only makes language poorer (through dilution in its explanatory power), but also diminishes the bonds of society, which are preserved through various relationship mechanisms including apology and forgiveness (which serves as an improvement over having a physical altercation on the one hand, and an abandonment of relationship on the other).

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